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Armmeggedon
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Savaging Star Wars (Yse, again. I'm sorry.)

#1 Postby Armmeggedon » Sat Mar 19, 2005 5:38 pm

OK, I've been kicking around a Star Wars conversion for a while, (Alright, blatently ripping off some of the stuff at Savage Heroes), and I'm finally ready to run it, except for two things:
Ship sheilds and the Force.
I haven't begun to sort out my feelings on handleing the Force in SW, but if anyone wants to float some ideas, I'm all ears.
As for sheilds, I have an idea: ships get "Sheild Bennies", which work as if the ship had the Ace edge. In other words, they could be spent to attempt to avoid damage when hit. An A-wing might only get 1, an X-wing 3 or 4, and a Star Destroyer might get, say, 10. They might also regenerate if the ship dosn't maneuver or fire for a turn, getting one benny. A MonCal cruiser with backup sheild generators might get 2 if regenerating sheilds.
Anyway, what do you guys think? To tough? Too weak? Not FFF enough?
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#2 Postby SlasherEpoch » Sat Mar 19, 2005 5:53 pm

Shield bennies: That'll make ships really hard to take out. I'm also curious if, say, the helmsman rolls Piloting, or does a shield operator roll Knowledge (ship systems) to soak?

Conversely, I can see the logic of being able to soak up concussion missle after concussion misle. A Star Destroyer vs. A-Wing scenario is unlikely to end well.

Now, you COULD say that's not FFF enough, but it does make sense...anyone who wants their Corellian Blockade Runner to tangle with a Star Destroyer, even a Galaxy class (is that the small one? does it exist? I haven't read the books for some time...sad, really), is going to take a while with its 8 or so shield bennies. The game is as fast as the players choose to make it.

How about this: In SW, it's usually represented as "more power to sheilds, less to everything else," so I think it's reasonable to say if you only fire half weapons and only move half pace, then get a sheild benny back.

Alternatively, you might just run shields as a type of Armor that decreases every round or simply allow ships to soak ALL damage. IE, A-Wing hit by blaster pistol: Nothing. Shields are Heavy Armor. A-Wing hit by TIE fighter blaster: 2d8 damage(?), the pilot rolls to soak..if it gets, good, if not, he's taking a Wound. Missles might have an ability that cause someone to soak at -4, and concussion missles (with their speed and homing tech) might gain a bonus to hit.

The Force:
Arcane Background, or make it a series of Weird Edges. Ta-da.

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#3 Postby zacapolooza » Sat Mar 19, 2005 11:47 pm

what if the shield generator of starships had a supply of power points and "cast" barrier on each side of the ship with a power point.
the power points could replenish as usual and the shields could be positioned wherever needed. star destroyers and capital ships could have multiple generators, each responsible for a section of the ship. the generators could be targets of attacks to weaken specific parts of a large ship, particularly the bridge.
the toughness of the barrier would depend on the the damage of your starship weapons, but if you go with 2d8, only above average rolls would blow a shield if u kept the standard toughness of 10.
also, if u want to emulate star wars more, i would say use knowledge (computers) to activate shields.

as far as the force is concerned, i think slasher has the right idea with a combination of edges and an arcane background. i would also say that there is only one arcane bockground for force use. but divide the powers into light and dark side. jedi would simply have the code of honor hindrance and sith or other traditions could have their own vows or codes of honor.

How about this for starters:

Blaster Deflection
Requirements-Seasoned, Arcane Background (The Force), First Strike, Agility d8+, Fighting d8+
Once per round, if you would be hit by a blaster attack and you are armed with a lightsaber, you may make an opposed Fighting roll vs. the shooter's Shooting roll. If you are successful, you deflect the shot. If you win with a raise, you can make an immediate Agility roll at -2 to reflect the blaster shot back at the shooter. All ranged attack penalties (range, darkness, etc.) count against this roll.
With Improved First Strike, you may use this Edge as many times per round as you want.

just some thoughts

zac

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#4 Postby Sitting Duck » Sun Mar 20, 2005 7:49 am

SlasherEpoch wrote:Now, you COULD say that's not FFF enough, but it does make sense...anyone who wants their Corellian Blockade Runner to tangle with a Star Destroyer, even a Galaxy class (is that the small one? does it exist? I haven't read the books for some time...sad, really), is going to take a while with its 8 or so shield bennies. The game is as fast as the players choose to make it.


You're mixing up your settings there. Galaxy class is the Enterprise from ST:TNG. IIRC the smaller star destroyers from the Star Wars novels are called Victory class.

The way I plan to handle shields in my own Savage setting is that the hull has its own Toughness while shields count as Armor when active.
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#5 Postby Red-24 » Sun Mar 20, 2005 3:18 pm

Hey Arrmmeggedon,

In case you didn't see, I have an updated Star Wars conversion that I wrote about in this thread http://www.peginc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5120. It gives a method for force powers as well as stats for enough ships to be able to extrapolate others.

I haven't gotten around to posting it to Savage Heroes, but I will do so right away so others can find it.

Let me know what you think, or if you have any questions (I did just notice a typo while re-checking out my work).
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#6 Postby Red-24 » Sun Mar 20, 2005 3:22 pm

Well I went to send an e-mail to Dave to ask him to post my conversion and found that he already has a link to my site. Not sure how long it has been there, but thanks Dave.
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#7 Postby SlasherEpoch » Sun Mar 20, 2005 5:35 pm

Sitting Duck wrote:You're mixing up your settings there. Galaxy class is the Enterprise from ST:TNG. IIRC the smaller star destroyers from the Star Wars novels are called Victory class.


Dammit.

Am I kicked out of the nerd club?

Okay, it goes Victory class, Imperial class, Executioner class, and then there's the Lusitania, another case altogether. Am I right?

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#8 Postby Strickland5 » Sun Mar 20, 2005 6:01 pm

You've got (from smallest to largest).

-Interdictor Cruirser (600m think mini-Star Destroyers with gravity well projectors)

-Victory (900m)

-Victory II (900m)

-Imperial (1,600 m)

-Super Star Destroyer (8,000m)
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Re: Savaging Star Wars (Yse, again. I'm sorry.)

#9 Postby ragnarok » Mon Mar 21, 2005 5:37 pm

Armmeggedon wrote:As for sheilds, I have an idea: ships get "Sheild Bennies", which work as if the ship had the Ace edge. In other words, they could be spent to attempt to avoid damage when hit.
<snip>
Anyway, what do you guys think? To tough? Too weak? Not FFF enough?
It just doesn't feel right that the shield bennies COULD be used(which gives me the image that for some players, small shots effect the ships while heavier shots bounce of without a scratch ;)).

What about this:
--------
Shields are just additional "-0" wounds, you could say they automatically soak damage. An A-wing could have wounds like this "-0 -1 -2 -3", while a ship with a better shield could have "-0 -0 -0 -1 -2 -3".

Regenerating the shield, by changing the flow of energy in your systems or <insert additional tech-talk> is simply an action that requires a Piloting roll -2. A sucess and the first raise, give in each case one "-0 wound" back (real "wounds" will not recover, even if the shields close above them again).

If you take the shield-regeneation-action, while you maneuver your ship and/or fire your weapons, the multi-action-penalty will cover nicely such problems as "not enough energy for a correct shot" or "not enough power for my hyperdrive".
-----------
Fast & Simple enough?

Of course you could change the "Regenerating the Shield = Piloting-2" to whatever you feel difficult enough(Perhaps you could change it by the power of the shield-generator, for example a shieldgenerator which is known for how fast it rebuilds it's shield could give a bonus while one that rebuilds it shield very slow, will give a penalty).

BTW: I wouldn't recommend giving out a lots sf Shieldpoints, just because, a ship is bigger(say your A-wing with a 1 pointshield vs. your StarDestroyer with 10 points). Bigger ships will automatically suffer less wounds(and thus less shield-loss) because they will have a higher toughness.
For example: Regardless of the System(wether it's your's or mine), an A-Wing with a 10 point shield and toughness 10, will survive less long if it fights an Xwing with toughness 30 and a 3 point-shield, and much less long than a Stardestroyer with Toughness 200 and a 1 point-shield.

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#10 Postby Simon » Mon Mar 21, 2005 8:32 pm

How's about (and this is more geared toward generic sci fi) a ship's sheild has two ratings: "Power", and "Strength". The Power is how many "Sheild Bennies" you have, and the Strength is the die type you roll to soak. High strength sheilds can only fit on the largest ships, while low strength sheilds can be found even on fighters. (If the idea of a high Power, low strength sheild or vice versa doesn't make sense to you, you could tie the two together, say one Power per Strength die.

An engineer can make a Repair roll (or other skill depending on setting) to recharge sheilds, one Power per success and raise.

As an option, you could allow a ship that doesn't fire that round to automatically regain a power, or to increase the sheild strength by one die type.

An "Improved Sheild" or some such could have a wild die in aaddition to the normal die.

In some settings though (Like Star Trek) more reliable sheilds would be better suited. Loath as I am to say it, pehaps some kind of "hit point" system would work.

Ok, I've just realised that given the numbers rolled for damage, soak rolls are gonna be pretty hard. Maybe if the soak was against a flat target number (4 for example, -2 for torpedoes), that'd work better, but we're getting pretty complex now.

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#11 Postby EssEmAech » Tue Mar 22, 2005 8:38 am

Deadlands did something simple for personal shields (Out of place tech, obviously), unless this was a house rule.

A shield simply absorbs X number of wounds. Building on that idea, obviously ships shields are going to be of differing qualities.

Lets run with Simon's Shield strength idea, as it works well for this, and I suppose you could run it a few ways.

Your shield has two ratings. One is it's "Vigor" die (or whatever you want to call it), and then also a flat number. The flat number is the number of "wounds" a shield can absorb before it has to be repaired, or systems can be rerouted (This would typically be after combat)

So, an X-wing has a shield rating of 1/d6 (1 wound capcity, d6 vig.). When hit, the player rolls the Shield's Vigor. On a success, the shield is more than capable of handling the damage (Reducing the number of wounds taken by 1). On a raise, the wounds taken are reduced by 2. A ship can only absorb as many wounds as it's rating.

So, obviously, more powerful weapons may deplete the shield, and still cause physical damage. I think this is in keeping with the tropes of shielding.

You could also run it that a Success on the Shield Vigor roll would mean the shield AND the ship take no damage, but a Failure would allow the enemy to roll damage. Any wounds would be absorbed by the shield first, and any left over would be applied to the ship itself.

You could use several edges with this, too. An edge that allows shields to regenerate. A "Redline" kind of edge that would allow a crafty engineer, or sidekick droid to squeeze just a little bit more shield power out of the systems, with the risk of burning the shields out until repairs can be affected, of course.

This is a rough idea, and it's off the top of my head, but I think it would be great with just a little bit o' work.

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#12 Postby Clint » Tue Mar 22, 2005 11:10 am

You know, I always saw "shields" in Star Wars as deflector shields. Han saying, "Angle the deflectors" and all that.

I'd just say shields are like the Deflection power. They provide a -2 to be hit. If you "double shields" to an area (like Luke in the trench), then the penalty goes to -4 there, but 0 in all other locations.

Then a new Piloting maneuver would be to "angle the deflectors." Make an opposed roll, and you increase the shield penalty by an additional -2 (with a raise needed if you only have "double shields" in one area).

Shields going down would just be one of the new results on the Critical Hit table.

Just my two cents. Seems F!F!F! <shrug>
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#13 Postby Armmeggedon » Tue Mar 22, 2005 12:15 pm

Great, Simon, Rook, and Clint all come up with great ideas. Which one to use?
I had thought about assigning a "Sheild Vigor" dice type.
Also, I'd have the sheild bennies be automatically used if the sheilds are up, i.e. no saving the bennies for the Star Destroyer shots and just taking the TIE fighter shots.
The problem with this is that any shot takes out a bennie, even really weak shots that probably wouldn't have hurt you anyway.
Idealy, I'd like to come up with a way to have sheilds A)not automaticaly stop a shot, but maybe reduce the strength, B) eventually deplete if you get hit enough, and C) not just add Toughness to the ship.
So far, I think Rook is closest to what I'm looking for.
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#14 Postby EssEmAech » Tue Mar 22, 2005 12:54 pm

Clint wrote:You know, I always saw "shields" in Star Wars as deflector shields. Han saying, "Angle the deflectors" and all that.

I'd just say shields are like the Deflection power. They provide a -2 to be hit. If you "double shields" to an area (like Luke in the trench), then the penalty goes to -4 there, but 0 in all other locations.

Then a new Piloting maneuver would be to "angle the deflectors." Make an opposed roll, and you increase the shield penalty by an additional -2 (with a raise needed if you only have "double shields" in one area).

Shields going down would just be one of the new results on the Critical Hit table.

Just my two cents. Seems F!F!F! <shrug>


I was thinking about that just after I made my above post. The Rebel Alliance fighters use Deflector Screens. Though the Star Destroyers do use shields, the generators are massive, and three are needed to support shielding for a SD.

So, I would agree that in the case of Rebel fighters, a built in version of the Deflection power seems more appriate and FFF...er. Not to mention that a Star Destroyers shields might as well be considered a Heavy Armor that a fighter cannot penetrate, until it has done a straffing run, disabled the shield generators, and then go for the bridge (as with most of the videogame adaptations.)

However, shields are an issue bound to come up in other sci-fi, and I'm going to keep tinkering with the wound absorbing/shield vigor idea for other forms of shielding.

Oh, and no problem, Armageddon. Good discussion :wink:

Edit: I forgot, but you've also got to keep in mind that Tie Fighters/Interceptors/Bombers have no form of deflector screens what so ever. That's why being an Imperial fighter pilot is such a "glorious" occupation (Han Solo was one). Although, I'd imagine that just about any non-rookie pilot of a Tie would have the Ace edge, WildCard or not (One ship soak?).
Last edited by EssEmAech on Tue Mar 22, 2005 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#15 Postby Clint » Tue Mar 22, 2005 3:39 pm

Armmeggedon wrote:Idealy, I'd like to come up with a way to have sheilds
A)not automaticaly stop a shot, but maybe reduce the strength
B) eventually deplete if you get hit enough
C) not just add Toughness to the ship.


Okay then, how about this...

Shields have two attributes: Rating and Hits.

Rating is the number of die types it reduces incoming damage. So, if a 4d8 laser hits a Rating (2) Shield, it's reduced to 4d4. A 3d6 Blaster can't harm a Rating (2) shield at all. You could also say Shields act as Heavy Armor, so hand weapons would be null anyway. That way Rating (1) Shields are viable for fighters and the like.

Hits is basically the reverse of ammo (in fact you could put Shields in a weapon spot on the Vehicle Sheet and use Ammo for Hits). It's the number of shots that Shield can take. 1 Hit is lost every time the shields are up. In addition, if the attack does any wounds, the shields loose +1 Hit per Wound. When you run out of Hits, the shields are down.

Then, when you "double shields" you double the Rating in one location. Trying to "get the shields back up" is a Repair roll that restores 1d6 Hits on a success and 2d6 on a raise (up to the maximum).

So an X-Wing has Shields: Rating (1)/Hits (10) or something like that.

Just a thought based on what you were looking for.
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#16 Postby Simon » Tue Mar 22, 2005 3:51 pm

Because we like toys, we're going to import ALL of these ideas into our StarPunk game (see 101 worlds). Different species' sheilds work differently if figure, and having a bajillion different types of sheild means more fun shopping.

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#17 Postby EssEmAech » Tue Mar 22, 2005 4:36 pm

Clint wrote:Shields have two attributes: Rating and Hits.

Rating is the number of die types it reduces incoming damage. So, if a 4d8 laser hits a Rating (2) Shield, it's reduced to 4d4. A 3d6 Blaster can't harm a Rating (2) shield at all. You could also say Shields act as Heavy Armor, so hand weapons would be null anyway. That way Rating (1) Shields are viable for fighters and the like.

Hits is basically the reverse of ammo (in fact you could put Shields in a weapon spot on the Vehicle Sheet and use Ammo for Hits). It's the number of shots that Shield can take. 1 Hit is lost every time the shields are up. In addition, if the attack does any wounds, the shields loose +1 Hit per Wound. When you run out of Hits, the shields are down.

Then, when you "double shields" you double the Rating in one location. Trying to "get the shields back up" is a Repair roll that restores 1d6 Hits on a success and 2d6 on a raise (up to the maximum).

So an X-Wing has Shields: Rating (1)/Hits (10) or something like that.

Just a thought based on what you were looking for.


Quite similar to how armor is handled in DeadLands. This is sort of the same effect I was shooting for with my method.

Good idea.
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#18 Postby Valander » Tue Mar 22, 2005 5:08 pm

I was just starting some work on Savaging Knights of the Old Republic, and I will be totally lifting Clint's shields idea. ;)
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#19 Postby jblittlefield » Tue Mar 22, 2005 5:13 pm

Clint wrote:You know, I always saw "shields" in Star Wars as deflector shields. Han saying, "Angle the deflectors" and all that.

I'd just say shields are like the Deflection power. They provide a -2 to be hit. If you "double shields" to an area (like Luke in the trench), then the penalty goes to -4 there, but 0 in all other locations.

Then a new Piloting maneuver would be to "angle the deflectors." Make an opposed roll, and you increase the shield penalty by an additional -2 (with a raise needed if you only have "double shields" in one area).

Shields going down would just be one of the new results on the Critical Hit table.

Just my two cents. Seems F!F!F! <shrug>


Leave it to Clint to get straight to the point! Seems like the best option yet - definitely more FFF than the others. Why am I not surprised? ;)

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#20 Postby SlasherEpoch » Tue Mar 22, 2005 6:47 pm

Or you could make it a direct Deadlands Revised port, to build further.

After the dice type is reduced to d4, subtract dice.

Example:
Beginning: 4d8 damage (turbolaser, let's say)
Vs. rating 1: 4d6
vs. rating 2: 4d4
Vs. rating 3: 3d4
Vs. rating 4: 2d4
Vs. rating 5: 1d4
Vs. rating 6+: Incapable of causing damage.


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