Some perspective? Where does Savage Worlds rank?

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Cryonic
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#21 Postby Cryonic » Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:12 pm

kronovan wrote:
tigerguy786 wrote:
kronovan wrote: I'm also skeptical Fantasy Flight Games Warhammer RPG's rank so high.


I don't know, I know a lot of people that enjoy it and some people whose only experience with RPGs is that system


Oh I know WH40k RP is popular, but don't forget that when icv2 does their ranking they combine all 3 of the RP games together. If the same was done for Savage Worlds, it would be like combining SWD with Deadlands, 50 Fathoms and Necessary Evil for total sales. I've no doubt the WH40k games together are in the top 10, but if you separated them I'm not so sure.


All of the 40K books are part of the same rule system and characters can be mixed together from the different books. The real difference is in base power level of a starting character. So, it seems to make sense that sales of the books would be combined.

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#22 Postby MonsterMike » Wed Dec 12, 2012 5:29 pm

I can offer a slightly different perspective on the question. We know that many (most? all?) RPG players tend to have a number of game systems on their shelves that got played once or never played at all. So sales isn't always the best measure of popularity. How much does SW get played?

RPGGeek has a function where users can log their plays, linked to the RPG system. Not everyone does it, but those who do are pretty religious about it.

Here's how the various systems stack up:

D&D 4th ed. 2136
Pathfinder RPG 1039
D&D 3.5 805
Call of Cthulhu (2nd-6th) 485
Savage Worlds 477

...and then everything else.

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#23 Postby Tinhorn Huckster » Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:24 pm

MonsterMike wrote:D&D 4th ed. 2136


Really? That's good to hear! As maligned as 4th Edition is, it's still the only D&D edition I like, so I'm glad it's doing well where it matters - with the gamers.
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#24 Postby Cryonic » Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:49 pm

Tinhorn Huckster wrote:
MonsterMike wrote:D&D 4th ed. 2136


Really? That's good to hear! As maligned as 4th Edition is, it's still the only D&D edition I like, so I'm glad it's doing well where it matters - with the gamers.


Take those numbers with a grain of salt. RPGgeek might not be a good, random sampling of gamers depending on other demographics that it isn't showing with that limited dataset.

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#25 Postby Sitting Duck » Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:41 am

Cryonic wrote:
Tinhorn Huckster wrote:
MonsterMike wrote:D&D 4th ed. 2136


Really? That's good to hear! As maligned as 4th Edition is, it's still the only D&D edition I like, so I'm glad it's doing well where it matters - with the gamers.


Take those numbers with a grain of salt. RPGgeek might not be a good, random sampling of gamers depending on other demographics that it isn't showing with that limited dataset.


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#26 Postby MonsterMike » Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:31 pm

Cryonic wrote:
Tinhorn Huckster wrote:
MonsterMike wrote:D&D 4th ed. 2136


Really? That's good to hear! As maligned as 4th Edition is, it's still the only D&D edition I like, so I'm glad it's doing well where it matters - with the gamers.


Take those numbers with a grain of salt. RPGgeek might not be a good, random sampling of gamers depending on other demographics that it isn't showing with that limited dataset.


Agreed. RPGGeek is populated with more multiple system players and hippie indie game lovers than the average gamer population. I offer these numbers with a whole bag of salt. But it is the only place I know of where you can get a reasonable amount of actual data on what people are playing at home. And having some data, even recognizing that it may be a poor sample and biased, is probably better than a complete absence of data.

The point I wanted to make is that sales does not equal plays does not equal popularity. Lots of people own RIFTS, but comparatively few people play it a lot. Lots of people own D&D and lots of people play it. People who own Savage Worlds tend to play it a lot and are usually pretty zealous about converting the heathen. Why? Because it just has a lot of advantages over other games - low entry cost, rules that are easy to learn, quick character generation, and FFF play.

So I agree that there is the 800 lb gorilla called D&D/Pathfinder sitting at the top, and then a second tier of well-known and much played games, followed by a third tier of little known indie games and loads of out-of-print games. I would argue that Savage Worlds is floating very near the top of that second tier with long-lived, well-established titles like Call of Cthulhu, Shadowrun, and World of Darkness.

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#27 Postby Cryonic » Sun Dec 16, 2012 5:01 pm

I was also referring to the age demographics of players. I'm guessing RPGgeek has a higher proportion of younger gamers represented in their stats. Granted, as gamers age they generally drop out of gaming due to time being taken up by other activities (marriage, kids, work, etc...) and so drop out of the scene, but also the older the gamer, the less likely they are to participate in online gaming stuff, like forums and such.

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#28 Postby Dragon Snack » Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:39 am

FWIW, the last time ICv2 ranked RPGs out to 10th place, Savage Worlds came in 8th on their list. Sure, it's not a scientific ranking, but it's probably a good barometer since it is based on talking to store.

That said, if they talked to me I would be throwing off their numbers. Savage Worlds has been the champion at my store for the majority of the time I've been open. It took a little while to get moving, then dominated for years, falling off when SWEX went OoP (losing to 4E D&D and an odd jump in PF) and recently when *all* of my RPG sales slipped (4e has the title currently, but then it's on sale for 20% off).

I sell a lot of Savage Worlds at conventions as well, thanks to the Savages running games and the fact that other stores don't carry it (well, one other store has finally caught on after 2 years). I'll say it again, if Pinnacle would be a little proactive and communicate more with stores (like they do directly with customers), they could sell more...
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#29 Postby TheLoremaster » Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:00 am

Dragon Snack wrote:...thanks to the Savages running games ...

Yer welcome. :D
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#30 Postby Clint » Thu Dec 20, 2012 9:37 am

Dragon Snack wrote:FWIW, the last time ICv2 ranked RPGs out to 10th place, Savage Worlds came in 8th on their list. Sure, it's not a scientific ranking, but it's probably a good barometer since it is based on talking to store.


Well, see my first post in the thread for my take on ICv2's results. They've been known to be definitively wrong before, but it's part of the nature of the limited results.

Dragon Snack wrote:That said, if they talked to me I would be throwing off their numbers. Savage Worlds has been the champion at my store for the majority of the time I've been open. It took a little while to get moving, then dominated for years, falling off when SWEX went OoP (losing to 4E D&D and an odd jump in PF) and recently when *all* of my RPG sales slipped (4e has the title currently, but then it's on sale for 20% off).


And there's a perfect example of those limited results. Where SW is strong, it tends to be very strong. Contacting the same folks over and over again or even primarily the same folks will give similar results over and over again.

And even then, it's also noted that sales "dominated" until the original SWEX went out of print, but that was a $10 book. If the question was not based on the number of rule books sold but the amount of money those sales generated would it still have "dominated?" I doubt it, since it would take selling at least 3-4 times as many books to get near the same cost for just one core rulebook (typically one of multiple) for another system.

Kind of ironic that we might be considered less successful because our lower prices sell more books. Not going to change, but kind of funny. ;)

Dragon Snack wrote:I sell a lot of Savage Worlds at conventions as well, thanks to the Savages running games and the fact that other stores don't carry it (well, one other store has finally caught on after 2 years). I'll say it again, if Pinnacle would be a little proactive and communicate more with stores (like they do directly with customers), they could sell more...


If you have any ideas how we could do that, feel free to shoot me an email. Our contact with the fans is almost exclusively through conventions and primarily these forums, but we didn't really do anything "proactive" to get the fans to participate here, so I don't know what we could do to draw in stores or even if this same format would work with them.

We do have the SW Explorer's Society to reward fans who support and run games at conventions and stores, and Studio 2 (our fulfillment house) sends out news and updates to stores (who sign up for it), but not really sure what else could be done to communicate with stores at the same level as the fans. Still, we're always willing to listen.
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#31 Postby Dragon Snack » Wed Dec 26, 2012 10:07 pm

Clint wrote:Well, see my first post in the thread for my take on ICv2's results. They've been known to be definitively wrong before, but it's part of the nature of the limited results.

True, but usually tempered by industry knowledge to take into account the skewed results. It's still susceptible to it's drawbacks, but often pretty close to reality.

Clint wrote:If the question was not based on the number of rule books sold but the amount of money those sales generated would it still have "dominated?"

Yes, dominated by numeric and monetary volume. Granted that was up against horrible 4E numbers, but still beating it senseless. At one point there were 7 SW games going on at the store, up against 1 D&D game.

Clint wrote:
Dragon Snack wrote: I'll say it again, if Pinnacle would be a little proactive and communicate more with stores (like they do directly with customers), they could sell more...

If you have any ideas how we could do that, feel free to shoot me an email.

I'll shoot you an email, but posting on the GIN and/or GSRF and having a retailer specific page here would go a long way towards bringing retailers to your side (this is the first I've hear about S2P sending out updates, I'll have to sign up).

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Dragon Snack wrote:...thanks to the Savages running games ...

Yer welcome. :D

I love you guys! :cool:
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#32 Postby DonsSword » Sat Jan 19, 2013 10:02 am

MonsterMike wrote:RPGGeek has a function where users can log their plays, linked to the RPG system. Not everyone does it, but those who do are pretty religious about it.


I would suspect that most don't do it. Its likely a feature used by a small subset of a small minority of gamers who even frequent that site. I have hung around BGG for years, and only poked its recently played feature a couple of times.

Also, keep in mind that RPGGeek is hobbled by its taxonomy(?). The way they categorize "Systems" separate from "Rules" separate from "Series," so what do people link to? They have separate entries at BoardGameGeek.com for the same game as well.

When SWD came out, I couldn't even get BGG to update the main SW image to the new Deluxe rules. I repeatedly tried to submit it, and they repeatedly rejected it. After about 6 months I gave up, and I pretty much stopped going to the site--they we "indelicate" in how they handled feedback on my submission.


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