Wish List for "Stone and a Hard Place"

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Wish List for "Stone and a Hard Place"

#1 Postby The Stray » Sat Oct 20, 2012 9:28 pm

Here is a list of things I'd like to see covered, given that this PPC will largely function as a guide to the Southwest (Texas, Arizona, and New Mexico, I think from the blurb).

* Prescott, Arizona. It's my hometown, so naturally I'd like to see it given a nod. Given that in our world it was the territorial capital from 1877 to 1889, it is at least worth a nod and a Savage Tale (and Virgil Earp was the marshal for a while in 1879, too!).

* Tuscon, Arizona. It got a pretty extensive write-up in Boomtowns, and I'd love to see that get dusted off and a Savage Tale or two there to wrap up some of the dangling plot threads.

* The Grand Canyon. Please. Pretty please. With a cherry on top.

* #"To the town of Agua Fria rode a stranger one fine day..."# this is just the nerd in me wanting to see a nod to such an awesome song...

* Fort 51. I don't know if Nevada is going to get covered in this book or the one about Hellstromme...is The Great Basin going to be covered in this sourcebook? I would expect so, since that's where Death Valley and the Mojave Desert are...but anyhoo, would like to see more on this. Though I'd personally like to see Desert left for another day...I expect SLC and the Bloody Ol' Muddy to make up most of the Hellstromme/Pestilence book.

* Fort Apache and the Flying Buffaloes. More on these brave folks, please.

* Geronimo and the Apaches. Do these folks win their struggle against Bayou Vermillion?

for that matter:

* Bayou Vermillion. Most of their track runs through the Southwest and Great Basin. Lone Star is their only main competitor now. They didn't get their faces stomped in Rail Wars 2 since they only sent saboteurs to the Battle of Peacetown. Will we get to take on Baron LaCroix? Will we get a chance to take him down? He's got so much invested in the region...he really should be one of the major villains of this campaign (right along with Stone)

* The Gunfight at the OK Corral and the Earp Vendetta Ride. Deadlands has been building up to this moment for years. It takes place in October of 1881, which is in the timeframe for the book (which covers from 1881-1882, correct?). This is a major thing and I would love to find a reason to get a posse involved going against the Cowboys (who are still on Bayou Vermillion's payroll, yes? See where I'm going with this?). I will be sorely disappointed if this isn't covered, either as part of the Plot Points, or as a series of Savage Tales (like The Flood's Triad War or Mexican Invasion).

* Billy the Kid. We've missed the Lincoln County War, but Billy The Kid is killed in July of 1881 in our world and I would love, love, LOVE to see a write-up of him and the Regulators, perhaps a Savage Tale dealing with Pat Garrett hunting down the Regulators and Billy trying to get the price taken off his head.

* Bonasco, New Mexico. Another old favorite from Boomtowns. How is Kangee getting on?

Anyhoo, that's my wish list. What about the rest of you folks? What would you like to see? Also, if Cutter or Clint would like to drop some hints, well...
Last edited by The Stray on Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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#2 Postby RJack » Sun Oct 21, 2012 12:25 am

The Bayou Vermillion thing seems a very strong possibility, and a solid opportunity to reprint/convert a lot of the remaining material from Black Circle and River o' Blood. With the Secret Empire addressed in the South o' the Border Trail Guide, and Santa Anna himself in the Flood, it seems appropriate to go after the remaining major figure in that little conspiracy.

Similarly, there's still stuff to do with the Grand Canyon, even after Canyon o' Doom. Chuckles Ryan's Laughing Men can be a great lower level foe. We might also see the return of the Crushed Man (from Quick and the Dead, not reprinted in the Classic Marshal's Guide).

I'm not sure about Fort 51. Epitaph #4 introduced Project Shiva, which ties Fort 51 more in with Pestilence's thing, although the Flying Buffaloes fights with the Apache tie in with the Southwest.

Cutter's already hinted that the OK Corral and its aftermath are going to figure in. The one thing that worries me is that the player's characters could just end up being "helpers" to the Earps and Holliday, watching them do stuff instead of directing the action themselves. My preference would remove more of them from the action (maybe the Earp faction suffers more casualties in the actual gunfight itself, leaving the players to avenge them). I'd especially like to see Holliday go. He's too much like a PC to be allowed to live.

Given the theme of Death, we might see a return of the prospector and his army of the dead. He made a brief cameo in Last Sons, but I think he might end up being a "questgiver" in Death's domain.

Related to that, I think it's very likely that one of the plot points, or possibly the campaign as a whole, may go back to the dark well of the first Deadlands adventure (and Dark Canyon) and automatically make one or all of the characters automatically harrowed. I don't have anything to back that up, just a wild guess.

Overall, I'm looking for themes of violence, vengeance, the loss of hope in the face of Death (and the struggle to find that hope), and the end of the West (I don't think it's a coincidence that Death's domain includes Arizona and New Mexico, 2 of the last territories to achieve statehood, sort of the last holdouts of the frontier).

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#3 Postby Cutter XXIII » Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:55 am

This is my new favorite thread. :)

I can't comment on a lot of it (no surprise there), but here's a few tidbits.

The Earps and the vengeance ride are central to the Plot Point. And one of my players still talks in glowing terms about how the "Earps' helpers" issue was handled. It was, without a doubt, his favorite thing we played.

Bayou Vermilion, Cowboys, Laughing Men... yes indeed. Hank Ketchum makes a... err... cameo. :twisted:

I'm still trying to decide about the Grand Canyon. There's a lot there, but I fear another "Fortress o' Fear" situation... including Devils Tower in The Last Sons was one of the reasons it got so big. I don;t want to give short shrift to something so significant. We're aiming for "regular Plot Point book" size this time around. :wink: We'll see what happens; it might go in, or we might have to do a Return to the Canyon o' Doom type of thing, assuming Return to Manitou Bluff goes over well.

Billy the Kid probably won't ever be a major Deadlands player. He's gotten his due in the Visionary comics, and might get more, but the fact is he's just not a particular fave of Shane's. And we go with Shane's likes and dislikes, 'cause he's the man.

Fort 51, absolutely yes. That material got cut from The Flood, so it's about time to brush off the dust and roll it out.

Overall, Stone and a Hard Place is a far more personal story than The Flood and The Last Sons. Those featured world-shaking, setting-altering events; this one is, as RJack said, about life, death, revenge, survival, and doing what's right.
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#4 Postby otherdoc » Sun Oct 21, 2012 4:23 pm

Doc Holliday has always been one of my favorite historical figures, so I'll be pleased to see how this resolves. In one of my current campaigns I've had him turn up in Dodge as a result of some of the posses' actions (Wyatt called him in after the posse discovered what was under Boot Hill - we're still currently in `79 in that campaign, though in an in-game month or two Earp and his family will likely be packing up and heading off with Doc when he returns to Tombstone).

I remember that there was a plot at some point in which the Cowboys were going to offer Doc life after death (courtesy of Baron LaCroix) to get him to change sides and were going to try to take him out if he gave the wrong answer. I know some folks like to cast him as a villain, but I'm hoping he gets to take the heroic option, even if it results in his demise. I think it's entirely possible given that he's been working on that Ranger training program with Hank Ketchum. Can't hang around that particular Ranger for long without a little heroism rubbing off. :wink:

Actually, come to think of it, it would be neat to see how that comes out, since (if I recall correctly) in Classic, the Hexslinger was ultimately supplanted by the Shootist. And if I am remembering this right, it was mentioned that Stone and a Hard Place might provide more material for Huckster-types, so we very well may see more about that.

And on the Huckster subject, if that also ends up being the book in which the Hoyle/Biren Lady Luck/Court fight plays out, we may geographically end up stretching all the way from eastern California all the way across Texas and over to New Orleans on the extreme right side of the map (which would also be possible given that we're hearing about heavier Bayou Vermillion involvement). I for one would be extremely happy to see the River o' Blood material make it in somewhere too, since that boxed set was something I used heavily in my first-ever Deadlands campaign.

Of course, I'd been thinking the River o' Blood stuff might end up in its own Trail Guide some time, which would be cool as well so I could be wrong about that.

Speaking of Texas, if we end up going there I'd also be keen to see a plot involving the five original Hangin' Judges. I finally managed to use a Hangin' Judge of the regular variety in the campaign I mentioned above and it came out very nicely (the posse managed to stop him, but not destroy him, so they've got yet another enemy who'll be coming after them some time soon). It'd be awesome to see it in Stone and a Hard Place, but I'm thinking a Judge plot might be something that's being saved for the upcoming Monster book.

Ooh, and something with Rattlers would be cool. I realize we already have the Worm Canyon stuff in Last Sons, but I think it might be remiss to cover the area that includes the Mojave Desert without seeing a single Mojave Rattler. :cool:
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#5 Postby robert4818 » Sun Oct 21, 2012 6:27 pm

Cutter XXIII wrote:Overall, Stone and a Hard Place is a far more personal story than The Flood and The Last Sons. Those featured world-shaking, setting-altering events; this one is, as RJack said, about life, death, revenge, survival, and doing what's right.


The next two books will be interesting. While Grimme and Raven have always been people hell bent on grand plans.

Stone and Hellstromme have not. Stone has been mosstly focused on important, but small things, like removing Obstacles (heroes), or doing specific missions (Heart 'O Darkness). He's generally a very straight forward character. This alone means that there's a very different style of story to tell.

Hellstrome is an obsessed man. To me, he's always been like Deadlands version of Mr. Freeze. Everything he does is in some way shape or form tied to his obsessive goal. To me, this could be an entire plot point simply centered around Salt Lake City/Deseret. That focus alone would set that book apart.
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#6 Postby otherdoc » Sun Oct 21, 2012 7:36 pm

robert4818 wrote:Hellstrome is an obsessed man. To me, he's always been like Deadlands version of Mr. Freeze. Everything he does is in some way shape or form tied to his obsessive goal. To me, this could be an entire plot point simply centered around Salt Lake City/Deseret. That focus alone would set that book apart.

I wouldn't be at all surprised. There's a LOT to go back to and sort out in Deseret - maybe at least as much as there was in the Great Maze. Me? I desperately want to see Reloaded Metal Mages. Thaumaturgical Diffusion must live!! :twisted:

I cannot wait for these next two plot point books to come out. Why is it not the future yet??!! :halfrobot:
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#7 Postby jpk » Sun Oct 21, 2012 8:43 pm

otherdoc wrote:Why is it not the future yet??!! :halfrobot:

Sadly, it never is, and it never will be.

In the big scheme of things, relativism blows.

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#8 Postby The Stray » Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:55 am

Cutter XXIII wrote:This is my new favorite thread. :)


Glad you liked it! :D

The Earps and the vengeance ride are central to the Plot Point. And one of my players still talks in glowing terms about how the "Earps' helpers" issue was handled. It was, without a doubt, his favorite thing we played.


Awesome!

Bayou Vermilion, Cowboys, Laughing Men... yes indeed. Hank Ketchum makes a... err... cameo. :twisted:


Also awesome!

I'm still trying to decide about the Grand Canyon. There's a lot there, but I fear another "Fortress o' Fear" situation... including Devils Tower in The Last Sons was one of the reasons it got so big. I don;t want to give short shrift to something so significant. We're aiming for "regular Plot Point book" size this time around. :wink: We'll see what happens; it might go in, or we might have to do a Return to the Canyon o' Doom type of thing, assuming Return to Manitou Bluff goes over well.


Sounds good...now I'll have to buy Manitou Bluff, just to make this happen...

Billy the Kid probably won't ever be a major Deadlands player. He's gotten his due in the Visionary comics, and might get more, but the fact is he's just not a particular fave of Shane's. And we go with Shane's likes and dislikes, 'cause he's the man.


He doesn't have to be a major player...it would be nice to get a Savage Tale or at least a write-up, though. Alferd Packer got a nod in Last Sons, after all, and I only know about him because I saw Cannibal: The Musical!

Fort 51, absolutely yes. That material got cut from The Flood, so it's about time to brush off the dust and roll it out.


Awesomesauce!

Overall, Stone and a Hard Place is a far more personal story than The Flood and The Last Sons. Those featured world-shaking, setting-altering events; this one is, as RJack said, about life, death, revenge, survival, and doing what's right.


So we're not going to find out what created the Coyote Wasteland this book, I take it.
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#9 Postby Cutter XXIII » Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:46 am

The Stray wrote:Alferd Packer got a nod in Last Sons, after all, and I only know about him because I saw Cannibal: The Musical!

I went to the University of Colorado, Boulder, where the cafeteria on campus was called the Alferd Packer Grill. :wink:

So we're not going to find out what created the Coyote Wasteland this book, I take it.

If that's the "Great Wasting" you're referring to, it probably won't be in any of the Plot Points. Having taken place sometime in the 1890s, it's way beyond the timeframe for the PPs.
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#10 Postby Cutter XXIII » Mon Oct 22, 2012 12:13 pm

Cutter XXIII wrote:
So we're not going to find out what created the Coyote Wasteland this book, I take it.

If that's the "Great Wasting" you're referring to, it probably won't be in any of the Plot Points. Having taken place sometime in the 1890s, it's way beyond the timeframe for the PPs.

To follow up on this point, I have it on good authority the story will be revealed... just not right Noir.

:wink:
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#11 Postby operations » Mon Oct 22, 2012 12:40 pm

Well, this answers my question in the other thread. Now, can someone tell me where this blurb is?
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#12 Postby The Stray » Mon Oct 22, 2012 6:55 pm

Cutter XXIII wrote:
The Stray wrote:Alferd Packer got a nod in Last Sons, after all, and I only know about him because I saw Cannibal: The Musical!

I went to the University of Colorado, Boulder, where the cafeteria on campus was called the Alferd Packer Grill. :wink:


Wow. That's in poor taste (yuk, yuk). :wink:

So we're not going to find out what created the Coyote Wasteland this book, I take it.

If that's the "Great Wasting" you're referring to, it probably won't be in any of the Plot Points. Having taken place sometime in the 1890s, it's way beyond the timeframe for the PPs.


Ah. Well, then, I guess I have to wait for Noir. :mrgreen:
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#13 Postby Jonah Hex » Tue Oct 23, 2012 5:41 pm

On my list would be a treatment of John Wesley Hardin, ideally a Savage Tale. I know he has a write-up in, I think, Quick and the Dead, but that is unfortunately before my time and unavailable. For someone as "accomplished" as he, he is practically unknown by 'normal' people.

I suppose there would need to be some historical fudging to have him in Texas and not in prison in '81 but...
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#14 Postby Noshrok Grimskull » Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:59 am

Jonah Hex wrote:On my list would be a treatment of John Wesley Hardin, ideally a Savage Tale. I know he has a write-up in, I think, Quick and the Dead, but that is unfortunately before my time and unavailable. For someone as "accomplished" as he, he is practically unknown by 'normal' people.

I suppose there would need to be some historical fudging to have him in Texas and not in prison in '81 but...

But only some minor fudging...

From Wikipedia:
Hardin was plagued by recurring poor health in prison, especially when the wound he had received from Sublett became re-infected in 1883, causing Hardin to be bedridden for two years.

So, he could've died in prison. Even before '81.
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#15 Postby Thunderforge » Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:10 pm

Cutter XXIII wrote:I'm still trying to decide about the Grand Canyon. There's a lot there, but I fear another "Fortress o' Fear" situation... including Devils Tower in The Last Sons was one of the reasons it got so big. I don;t want to give short shrift to something so significant. We're aiming for "regular Plot Point book" size this time around. :wink: We'll see what happens; it might go in, or we might have to do a Return to the Canyon o' Doom type of thing, assuming Return to Manitou Bluff goes over well.

Totally for making it a separate scenario, especially if it is released alongside A Stone and a Hard Place and can be run with it or as a standalone adventure.
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#16 Postby Cutter XXIII » Fri Oct 26, 2012 1:47 pm

Thunderforge wrote:
Cutter XXIII wrote:I'm still trying to decide about the Grand Canyon. There's a lot there, but I fear another "Fortress o' Fear" situation... including Devils Tower in The Last Sons was one of the reasons it got so big. I don;t want to give short shrift to something so significant. We're aiming for "regular Plot Point book" size this time around. :wink: We'll see what happens; it might go in, or we might have to do a Return to the Canyon o' Doom type of thing, assuming Return to Manitou Bluff goes over well.

Totally for making it a separate scenario, especially if it is released alongside A Stone and a Hard Place and can be run with it or as a standalone adventure.

It definitely wouldn't be "alongside." Recall that The Flood came out in 2009, and Return to Manitou Bluff dropped in 2012.
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#17 Postby Baiyo » Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:02 pm

Cutter XXIII wrote:Billy the Kid probably won't ever be a major Deadlands player. He's gotten his due in the Visionary comics, and might get more, but the fact is he's just not a particular fave of Shane's. And we go with Shane's likes and dislikes, 'cause he's the man.


I understand why Billy and the Regulators are getting left out of the plot point books, but it'd just be a damn shame if the Lincoln County War were never touched on in any Deadlands materials. I hope you guys will consider publishing a standalone adventure book about it. Something Coffin Rock size could be enough material.

'Course, I suppose I could research and write it myself, and then not have to pay any money for it...

Plot point-wise, I'm liking everything I hear about the third one. But maybe it should be called Tombstone and a Hard Place?
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#18 Postby Cutter XXIII » Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:33 pm

Baiyo wrote:Plot point-wise, I'm liking everything I hear about the third one. But maybe it should be called Tombstone and a Hard Place?

If I said more (for instance, mentioning the fact that the posse may very well end up in Washington, DC, at one point), it wouldn't seem that way.

But I'm not gonna say more.

...Hey, waitaminnit! :)
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#19 Postby StalkThis » Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:18 pm

I just hope that the Hard Place is the other Stone.

:P

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#20 Postby iskandar » Fri Oct 26, 2012 9:12 pm

I just hope we get the stone cold stunner back.


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