Defense Roll

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Paul1970
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Defense Roll

#1 Postby Paul1970 » Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:54 pm

forgive me if i have missed this in another post, but just wondering if anyone has ever come up with an idea for a defense roll? SW, IMO, is a far faster, simpler, better system - but i do like active defense rolls (a la Gurps), vs just rolling to hit a static number like "Parry".

thanks for any input.

paul

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#2 Postby The Dread Polack » Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:42 pm

Apparently, early drafts of SW had a defensive roll instead of a static Parry rating. They decided that with the high number of attack rolls made in the game, it was worth it to speed it up with a static TN. They then added in the systm by which you soak by spending a benny.

If you wanted to go back to the original system, then you'd have melee attacks be an opposed Fighting roll. You could spend a benny to re-roll your Fighting roll, but there wouldn't be any more Soak rolls (unless you wanted to also keep those. It would lower the lethality).

Just know that this would slow things down a bit, unless combat was rare in your game.

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#3 Postby The Dread Polack » Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:45 pm

Oh, and changing the static TN 4 for making ranged attacks is a different deal. You could have it be opposed with an Agility roll, but that changes the way ranged combat works. It is assumed, with the current system, that you can't really "Dodge" ranged attacks, but that you need to take cover or find other ways of making yourself harder to be hit. Other people have more useful input on that. It's been discussed here before.

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#4 Postby Zadmar » Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:38 am

The Dread Polack wrote:If you wanted to go back to the original system, then you'd have melee attacks be an opposed Fighting roll. You could spend a benny to re-roll your Fighting roll, but there wouldn't be any more Soak rolls (unless you wanted to also keep those. It would lower the lethality).

The Soak roll is due to Toughness rather than Parry. I wouldn't suggest dropping Soak rolls unless you also replace Toughness with an opposed Vigor roll.

I do sometimes wonder why grappling still uses the opposed Fighting roll, though. Perhaps it's because otherwise the defender wouldn't be able to spend a benny to avoid being grappled (as there's no Soak, and breaking free requires an action)?

One situation where I have considered using opposed Fighting rolls is Sweep.

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#5 Postby kronovan » Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:34 am

There's somewhat of a defence roll in place for Area of Effect attacks in that the target can make an Agility roll at -2 to roll/dive beyond the burst radius. If I was going to intro a defence roll I'd probably have it consist of an opposed Agility roll, since it's the linked attribute for Fighting.

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#6 Postby Clint » Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:56 pm

kronovan wrote:There's somewhat of a defence roll in place for Area of Effect attacks in that the target can make an Agility roll at -2 to roll/dive beyond the burst radius.


Just to clarify, the Agility roll is only if there is a way to know it's coming.
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#7 Postby The Dread Polack » Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:45 pm

[quote="Zadmar"]The Soak roll is due to Toughness rather than Parry. I wouldn't suggest dropping Soak rolls unless you also replace Toughness with an opposed Vigor roll.[quote]

My mistake. You are correct.

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#8 Postby SeeleyOne » Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:08 pm

I played GURPS for 10 years (1997 to 2007). The defense roll was one thing that I actually hated. It really slowed down the game, and as a player I got really tired of rolling an attack roll only to have it miss (even when I succeeded by a significant amount). There was a rule (which other GMS in my group did not use) where you could give a -1 to the defense per 2 that you hit by, which helped, but the additional die rolling really slows down the game.

I strongly discourage rolling defenses. Resistances is one thing, but having a static TN is a great move IMHO. If you want to be better at defending, get a higher Fighting skill, or take an edge, or do something tricky to help it. The additional die rolling serves mostly to slow down the game as in my experience there really was little benefit to rolling.
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#9 Postby The Dread Polack » Tue Oct 02, 2012 3:16 pm

I'm playing another RPG right now where you roll to hit, and the opponent rolls to dodge or block. If he rolls high enough, he can immediately roll a counterattack, possibly with a bonus. You get to dodge or block this. (No, you can't counter the counterattack). Damage is determined by your weapon and the difference between the attack and defense. If damage is at least half of the enemie's remaining HP, then you roll for a critical, and he rolls to resist the critical. If the Crit succeeds, you roll a hit location.

I would love to introduce a static defense score equal to your block or dodge + 50 (all rolls are d100s), but all rolls are able to "ace", so it would be giving an advantage to attackers. This might be okay if it's applied evenly. In fact, it might make combat go quicker by making it more lethal.

Anyway, that's for normal combat. It gets worse if the damage is energy-based, or there's poison, or some other additional effect.

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Re: Defense Roll

#10 Postby ValhallaGH » Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:03 pm

Paul1970 wrote:SW, IMO, is a far faster, simpler, better system - but i do like active defense rolls (a la Gurps), vs just rolling to hit a static number like "Parry".l

Then you can use that. But note that parry is 2 + half fighting, making it higher than the average "active parry" result.

Generally, it makes big fights versus hordes of extras into a gruelling series of rolls. Imagine a Skaven horde fighting a couple of Bretonian knights - that's 20 to 1 odds - that means ten or twenty defense rolls in addition to the attack rolls, and you have to do it in sequence.
The current system lets you pick up twenty dice, roll them at once, and see if they hit the relevant knight, and then repeat for the other knight. Going to active rolls will require each attack to be rolled one at a time for accurate comparison. That's going to add hours to a fight, generally for no increase of fun.

Oh, and you can still actively defend in the normal rules - by taking the Total Defense action.


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Re: Defense Roll

#11 Postby Clint » Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:21 pm

ValhallaGH wrote:Then you can use that. But note that parry is 2 + half fighting, making it higher than the average "active parry" result.


Actually, 2 + half die type is as close as you can get to "average" 50/50, once Acing and the Wild Die are taken into account.
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Re: Defense Roll

#12 Postby ValhallaGH » Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:30 am

Clint wrote:
ValhallaGH wrote:Then you can use that. But note that parry is 2 + half fighting, making it higher than the average "active parry" result.


Actually, 2 + half die type is as close as you can get to "average" 50/50, once Acing and the Wild Die are taken into account.

Gah! You're right. But it is higher than the average result for Extras, and more consistent than most players' dice. :lol:
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#13 Postby Zadmar » Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:08 am

Hrm, an extra with...

d4 has an average of 3.33 (so you'd beat it with a roll of 4).
d6 has an average of 4.2 (so you'd beat it with a roll of 5).
d8 has an average of 5.14 (so you'd beat it with a roll of 6).
d10 has an average of 6.11 (so you'd beat it with a roll of 7).
d12 has an average of 7.09 (so you'd beat it with a roll of 8).

As you only have to meet the Parry TN (rather than exceed it), wouldn't the odds be around the same as an opposed roll?

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Re: Defense Roll

#14 Postby SeeleyOne » Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:17 am

ValhallaGH wrote:
Clint wrote:Gah! You're right. But it is higher than the average result for Extras, and more consistent than most players' dice. :lol:

How about "on the average, people suck"? I have heard from a few sources that in shootouts there are a LOT of missed shots. And as for Fighting (which this conversation is really discussing) it still seems pretty accurate if you sit down and think about it. It isn't all that hard to block or dodge an incoming attack. What is hard is that higher skilled combatants it is to get past the others' guard.
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#15 Postby kronovan » Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:08 am

Clint wrote:
kronovan wrote:There's somewhat of a defence roll in place for Area of Effect attacks in that the target can make an Agility roll at -2 to roll/dive beyond the burst radius.


Just to clarify, the Agility roll is only if there is a way to know it's coming.

Well yes, but I didn't mention it because I thought that was kind of obvious.

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#16 Postby sablemage » Wed Oct 03, 2012 12:43 pm

SeeleyOne wrote:I played GURPS for 10 years (1997 to 2007). The defense roll was one thing that I actually hated. It really slowed down the game, and as a player I got really tired of rolling an attack roll only to have it miss (even when I succeeded by a significant amount).


Agreed. The straight roll vs Parry is one of the things that drew me to SW in the first place.

I dealt with the length of combat and attack-parry cycle in GURPS by building a PC that could dual-wield flails. Eat that, high-parry fighters! Of course, he couldn't do anything else... :)

I mention this because you might find someone doing something similar if you introduce the active defence rolls into SW. Or. you might want to build an opponent that way if the PCs invest in high active defences.

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#17 Postby The Dread Polack » Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:27 am

I think it depends a LOT on the system and type of game you're playing. In the SW games I've played, a defense roll wouldn't slow things down too much, but in the above mentioned 20:1 scenario, it would slow to a crawl.

Over all, I prefer a static defense score. This can be expanded to things like damage resistance (like toughness), or mental defense, or perception, or really any contested roll. As the folks at SW have pointed out, sometimes it just seems better to have the ability to roll against an effect than just hope your static defense is high enough.

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#18 Postby SeeleyOne » Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:52 am

Here is an idea: What if Wild Cards can make the Defense roll? That way Extras are still just the sum of their numbers, but a WC can instead choose to roll.
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#19 Postby Zadmar » Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:28 pm

SeeleyOne wrote:Here is an idea: What if Wild Cards can make the Defense roll? That way Extras are still just the sum of their numbers, but a WC can instead choose to roll.

The problem is that if the Wild Card is being attacked by multiple opponents, they'd have to make a defence roll against each attack - that can really add up in larger battles, particularly as (due to the Wild Die) you'd need to make the rolls one after the other.

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#20 Postby Paul1970 » Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:04 pm

you guys are great, and you know, i think you have convinced me to go with the static number. i think it makes the most sense. thank you all for your time and responses.

paul


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