Optic Scope?

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Hellfire6A
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Optic Scope?

#1 Postby Hellfire6A » Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:56 am

Laser Sight blurb mentions using an optic scope, but there is no optic scope listed in my version of HOER. Has this been updated? Or is it missing?
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#2 Postby ValhallaGH » Wed Aug 01, 2012 8:13 am

See "Scope" on the same page.

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#3 Postby Hellfire6A » Wed Aug 01, 2012 2:58 pm

Laser Sight: Laser sights may be
attached to any ballistic weapon. The user
gains a +1 bonus to Shooting rolls against
targets in Short Range unless using the
automatic fire maneuver. If using an optic
scope in conjunction with the laser sight,
the bonus is good for all Ranges. The sight
uses small batteries that last for roughly
100 shots.

pg 45 SWD

Scope: Scopes may only be mounted
on rifles. When a shooter uses a scope, he
gains +2 to Shooting rolls against targets at
Medium or Long Range.

Also pg 45 SWD

These are clearly referring to two different things. Under laser sight it says can be mounted to any ballistic weapon for the laser sight. Under Scope it talks about only being mounted to rifles this is a telescopic sight.

I am guessing that optic sight is supposed to be like a red dot sight.

Using the find function on the HOER pdf only comes up with this one reference (in laser sight) to optic sight. The other scope is something different.
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#4 Postby Clint » Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:09 pm

Hellfire6A wrote:Laser Sight: Laser sights may be
attached to any ballistic weapon. The user
gains a +1 bonus to Shooting rolls against
targets in Short Range unless using the
automatic fire maneuver. If using an optic
scope in conjunction with the laser sight,
the bonus is good for all Ranges. The sight
uses small batteries that last for roughly
100 shots.

pg 45 SWD

Scope: Scopes may only be mounted
on rifles. When a shooter uses a scope, he
gains +2 to Shooting rolls against targets at
Medium or Long Range.

Also pg 45 SWD

These are clearly referring to two different things. Under laser sight it says can be mounted to any ballistic weapon for the laser sight. Under Scope it talks about only being mounted to rifles this is a telescopic sight.


Actually, that is the scope it refers to. It says under the laser sight what the effect is if used with an optic scope, not that optic scopes are also usable with any ballistic weapon. Two separate statements.

Optic scope and telescopic sight are synonymous.
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#5 Postby Hellfire6A » Wed Aug 01, 2012 4:13 pm

Clint wrote:
Hellfire6A wrote:Laser Sight: Laser sights may be
attached to any ballistic weapon. The user
gains a +1 bonus to Shooting rolls against
targets in Short Range unless using the
automatic fire maneuver. If using an optic
scope in conjunction with the laser sight,
the bonus is good for all Ranges. The sight
uses small batteries that last for roughly
100 shots.

pg 45 SWD

Scope: Scopes may only be mounted
on rifles. When a shooter uses a scope, he
gains +2 to Shooting rolls against targets at
Medium or Long Range.

Also pg 45 SWD

These are clearly referring to two different things. Under laser sight it says can be mounted to any ballistic weapon for the laser sight. Under Scope it talks about only being mounted to rifles this is a telescopic sight.


Actually, that is the scope it refers to. It says under the laser sight what the effect is if used with an optic scope, not that optic scopes are also usable with any ballistic weapon. Two separate statements.

Optic scope and telescopic sight are synonymous.


So if that is the case? What are the modifiers? If I have a lasersight on a pistol, that can be mounted to any ballistic weapon and then mount an optic scope (which supposedly can only be mounted to rifles) to a pistol do I get +1 at all ranges or do I get +1/+2/+2? Or is it +1/+3/+3? This isn't clear to me especially since it is called optic scope in one paragraph and just scope in another; especially when the precedent is set from SWD that scopes are optical scopes that can be mounted to all manner of firearms (rifles and pistols included) pg 50 SWD.

Not all scopes are the same. I understand FFF, but you can't use two different names for the same thing on the same page especially when the mounting considerations seem opposed and hope that everyone is going to get it. This is definitely the case if you go back to SWD and then get a seemingly different answer.
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#6 Postby ValhallaGH » Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:32 pm

Hellfire6A wrote:What are the modifiers?

Rifle: +1 at Short, +1 at Medium, -1 at Long.
Pistol: Cannot mount a scope, so it's +1 at Short, -2 at Medium, and -4 at long.
Shotguns could be interesting, if the Marshal says that they can mount scopes like rifles.
Shotgun with laser: +3 at short, +0 at medium, -2 at long.
Shotgun with scope: +2 at short, +2 at medium, +0 at long.
Shotgun with both: +3 at short, +3 at medium, +1 at long.


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Edit: Corrected for bad reading.
Last edited by ValhallaGH on Thu Aug 02, 2012 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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#7 Postby VonDan » Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:40 pm

Ware it is a problem is if you start with your Dad's Winchester, then get a bolt action sniper rifle in junk town, then you take an assault rifle from a dead Anti Paliden and then you chase off a demon with a .50 Barret in the Boise college clock tower and take his weapon. You are broke buying 3 kinds of scope for every weapon and 75% of your gear weight is rifles

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#8 Postby Redtwin » Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:38 pm

ValhallaGH wrote:Rifle: +2 at Short, +2 at Medium, +0 at Long. With the NA M-42, it's +3/+3/+1.


This puzzles me.

The rifle on it's own is 0/-2/-4.
You have to aim to use the scope, adding +2/+2/+2.
The scope adds 0/+2/+2.
The laser adds another +1/+1/+1.

Shouldn't the total be +3/+3/+1?
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#9 Postby Clint » Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:07 am

Hellfire6A wrote:So if that is the case? What are the modifiers? If I have a lasersight on a pistol, that can be mounted to any ballistic weapon and then mount an optic scope (which supposedly can only be mounted to rifles) to a pistol do I get +1 at all ranges or do I get +1/+2/+2? Or is it +1/+3/+3? This isn't clear to me especially since it is called optic scope in one paragraph and just scope in another; especially when the precedent is set from SWD that scopes are optical scopes that can be mounted to all manner of firearms (rifles and pistols included) pg 50 SWD.

Not all scopes are the same. I understand FFF, but you can't use two different names for the same thing on the same page especially when the mounting considerations seem opposed and hope that everyone is going to get it. This is definitely the case if you go back to SWD and then get a seemingly different answer.


Ah, I see what you mean. You listed that info as coming from page 45 of SWD, but it came from HOE, and the scope info is different in SWD (on pg. 50).

That requires further checking then.
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#10 Postby ValhallaGH » Thu Aug 02, 2012 2:42 pm

Redtwin wrote:
ValhallaGH wrote:Rifle: +2 at Short, +2 at Medium, +0 at Long. With the NA M-42, it's +3/+3/+1.

This puzzles me.
...
Shouldn't the total be +3/+3/+1?

Check HOER page 45. The Scope gives +2 shooting against targets at Medium or Long range - it doesn't care about the action you took. We'll assume, however, that it works like Snapfire, and you can't use the scope when you're moving; that's how the Core Rules scopes work.
The laser simply gives a +1 at short range, no questions asked.

So, it should be +1/+1/-1. If you Aim then it is +3/+3/+1.

And yes, I did correct my original post. :blam:
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#11 Postby Hellfire6A » Thu Aug 02, 2012 4:44 pm

Clint wrote:
Hellfire6A wrote:So if that is the case? What are the modifiers? If I have a lasersight on a pistol, that can be mounted to any ballistic weapon and then mount an optic scope (which supposedly can only be mounted to rifles) to a pistol do I get +1 at all ranges or do I get +1/+2/+2? Or is it +1/+3/+3? This isn't clear to me especially since it is called optic scope in one paragraph and just scope in another; especially when the precedent is set from SWD that scopes are optical scopes that can be mounted to all manner of firearms (rifles and pistols included) pg 50 SWD.

Not all scopes are the same. I understand FFF, but you can't use two different names for the same thing on the same page especially when the mounting considerations seem opposed and hope that everyone is going to get it. This is definitely the case if you go back to SWD and then get a seemingly different answer.


Ah, I see what you mean. You listed that info as coming from page 45 of SWD, but it came from HOE, and the scope info is different in SWD (on pg. 50).

That requires further checking then.


I am not one for quoting Homer Simpson, but..."D'oh"! Yeah the blurbs were taken from pg45 HOER. The scope blurb from SWD on pg 50 seems to contradict that. I realize setting rules trump, but I thought that might act as a bridge.

I am like V on this in HOER neither blurb refers to Aim maneuver or to staying still. However, the SWD does require that a shooter remain motionless.

I generally don't consider range increments as a negative modifier. I just think of the TNs as being 4, 6 and 8. Thus my numbers for modifiers.

Say a XM-21 with laser sight and scope and no other modifiers. +1 at short range, +3 (laser sight and scope) at medium and long range?

And is it possible that the optic sight referred to in HOER is more akin to a red dot sight that provides a +1 at all ranges instead of a laser sight/scope combination?

Problem is there are so many possibilities...pure optical telescopic sights, holographic sights, laser sights, night sights (thermal or Light amplification) etc.

Sorry for the gaff. :oops:

Edit Note: SWD refers to range increments using modifiers of -2 and -4 for medium and long range. I shall have to endeavor to use this in the future. I just hate having to do one more step to modify a roll. :cry:
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#12 Postby sife42 » Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:40 am

I know this may be a silly question, but is the actual cost of putting a scope on a weapon listed anywhere in SWD? I tried to find it and either need glasses or missed it completely.

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#13 Postby VonDan » Thu Aug 09, 2012 3:00 am

sife42 wrote:I know this may be a silly question, but is the actual cost of putting a scope on a weapon listed anywhere in SWD? I tried to find it and either need glasses or missed it completely.



I'm not sure about SWD but in the classic HOE to mount the scopes required a repair or gunsmith skill. I had to pay some one to do that in barter or service until I added gunsmith to my skills

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#14 Postby ValhallaGH » Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:42 am

sife42 wrote:I know this may be a silly question, but is the actual cost of putting a scope on a weapon listed anywhere in SWD? I tried to find it and either need glasses or missed it completely.

It is not.

I'd require 10 minutes, 6 bullets, and a Repair roll. Because it's not too terrible an operation, but you do have to spend some ammo to bore-sight the scope.
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#15 Postby sife42 » Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:47 am

ValhallaGH wrote:
sife42 wrote:I know this may be a silly question, but is the actual cost of putting a scope on a weapon listed anywhere in SWD? I tried to find it and either need glasses or missed it completely.

It is not.

I'd require 10 minutes, 6 bullets, and a Repair roll. Because it's not too terrible an operation, but you do have to spend some ammo to bore-sight the scope.


Makes perfect sense. Is there a cost for the actual scope itself somewhere?

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#16 Postby ValhallaGH » Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:58 am

Not in the Core Rules. Prices are the most setting-dependent stats for an item, so they aren't that important - many GMs change them anyway.

Hell on Earth Reloaded lists them at $200. But that's a post-apocalyptic game with starting funds of $250.
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#17 Postby Clint » Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:06 am

Okay, so after some confusion and clarification on our end, we have determined that we were talking about different sights in HOE. There should have been two scopes in the book.

The sight in HOE is in fact a "red dot sight" as Hellfire6A thought. It is larger (rifles only) but can be used while moving but it doesn't stack with a laser sight.

The optical sight is the telescopic one from SWD. Cost, weight, and all that stuff would be the same for both (making it look like a duplication originally). They're the ones that work with the laser sight (magnifying the dot image) but don't allow movement when used.

Sorry for the confusion.
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#18 Postby shinryu » Tue Aug 21, 2012 1:18 pm

Clint wrote:Okay, so after some confusion and clarification on our end, we have determined that we were talking about different sights in HOE. There should have been two scopes in the book.

The sight in HOE is in fact a "red dot sight" as Hellfire6A thought. It is larger (rifles only) but can be used while moving but it doesn't stack with a laser sight.

The optical sight is the telescopic one from SWD. Cost, weight, and all that stuff would be the same for both (making it look like a duplication originally). They're the ones that work with the laser sight (magnifying the dot image) but don't allow movement when used.

Sorry for the confusion.


Sorry, may be a little late to the party on this one, but this would mean:

RDS/"Optic" scope: +1 at all ranges

Standard/"telescopic" scope: +2 at medium and long range only

Laser sight: +1 short range, or +3 at medium and long range with a standard scope.

Sounds about right to me. I would mention that RDS sights are now small enough for pistol use and there are actually some hybrid setups with an RDS type-sight on top of a telescopic (the G36 uses this in specific), so you actually can kind of have everything if you're so inclined.


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