Kingmaker conversion or Citybuilding mechanics?

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Mylon
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Kingmaker conversion or Citybuilding mechanics?

#1 Postby Mylon » Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:35 pm

Does anyone have any good material for city or kingdom building? I'm tempted to run an adaptation of the Pathfinder Kingmaker module. However, the rules in the book are a little weird. Essentially it's economically advantageous to build a hundred graveyards. Which makes very little sense. The concept is awesome, but the execution leaves a little to be desired.

My goal is to have a campaign running in Maptool where, over the course of many sessions they lay out and build a city within Maptool itself, using it for a variety of adventures and escapades. Everything from the orcs launching a raid on the fledgling hamlet to quashing the budding thieves' guild to facing an army on the doorstep of the developed metropolis.

ValhallaGH
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#2 Postby ValhallaGH » Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:31 pm

Man, this just came up :-D
http://www.peginc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=359571
I found kronovan's point especially worthy of consideration:
http://www.peginc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=359571&#359746

However, it sounds like your complaint with Kingmaker is the value of certain things, rather than the basic structure. Capping some bonuses (no benefit from more than 2 graveyards) and altering others may let you use your existing resource without any undo effort.
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Mylon
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#3 Postby Mylon » Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:03 pm

Doh, I opened a bunch of forum threads and then created this one without reading the threads I opened up. I feel like a doofus now.

quigs
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#4 Postby quigs » Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:34 pm

The kingmaker rules are pretty much fine as is for Savage Worlds. Really, you'd only want to rephrase the "alignment" portion and change the references to ability score modifiers to half the character's attribute die (or their Charisma score) and plug that number into the formula. Change DC to TN but you could still roll a d20 and use those results as is.

Also, I wouldn't let the PC's build more than 2 graveyards at the most. Who's going to want to live in a city full of graveyards anyways? Common sense needs to override any such munchkinism there.

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#5 Postby Citrine » Sun Jul 29, 2012 3:57 pm

I Savaged the Kingmaker material, but I have not had a chance to play it with a group yet. I gave the Kingdom 2 bennies, which might be too much, especially if most of the play session is spent playing out character level encounters. I kept the d20, and am still calling it a DC :-p.

Kingdom Traits, instead of alignment:

Kingdom Traits: A kingdom’s traits affects its statistics. Choose your kingdom’s 2 traits carefully, in addition to the obvious bonuses, it affects what sort of immigrants and religions your realm might gain.
• Arcane Tradition: Schools and Magical Centers cost 25 % less, 1 extra random magic item available
• Beacon of Light: +2 bonus on Loyalty checks and rolls dealing with undead or plague.
• Blessed: 10% less chance of a bad event
• Bureaucracy: +4 bonus on Stability Checks, 2 Economy
• Center of Intrigue: Spymaster gains +2 on all rolls and spymaster benefits, spymaster reduces unrest by 1
• Criminal Haven: +3 bonus on Economy, -3 on Stability checks, , Brothel, Tavern, Black Market cost half, 1 extra random strength magic item available on the Black Market
• Economic Zone: +2 bonus on Economy
• Free Spirits: +2 bonus on Loyalty checks and rolls dealing with festivals and entertainment.
• Law and Order: +2 bonus on Stability checks, and rolls dealing with criminal activity.
• Legion Road Builders: Defensive structures and roads costs half. You can build one free road a turn, as long as you have a military consisting of at least 50 men.
• Lucky: Realm gains an additional benny per playing session.
• Military Tradition: Military spending and spending on defensive buildings cost 10% less
• Multicultural: Leaders do not take the outsider penalty on kingdom rolls, and when acting in an official capacity within the realm. Non-human settlers are more common. Spymaster takes a -1 penalty on all rolls.
• Neutral: +2 bonus on Stability checks.
• Religious Tradition: Religious buildings and monuments cost 25% less, religious festival effects double
• Tyranny: +2 bonus on Stability checks, +1 bonus on economy, Defense costs 10% more

Changed rulers to use skills/edges, plus I changed some titles:

Councilor
The councilor ensures that the will of the citizenry is represented.
Benefit Increase Loyalty by a value equal to Charisma or half Persuasion skill.
Vacancy Penalty Decrease Loyalty by 2. The kingdom cannot gain benefits from festivals.
Increase Unrest by 1 during each Upkeep phase in which the kingdom has no Councilor.

General
The General commands the kingdom’s armies and is a public hero.
Benefit Increase Stability by a value equal to half of the General’s Knowledge Battle skill or + 1 for each Leadership edge.
Vacancy Penalty Decrease Stability by 4.

Grand Diplomat
The Grand Diplomat oversees international relations.
Benefit Increase Stability by a value equal to Charisma or half the Persuasion Skill of the Grand Diplomat.
Vacancy Penalty Decrease Stability by 2. The kingdom cannot issue Promotion Edicts.

Grand Vicar
The Grand Vicar guides the kingdom’s religious growth and sees to spiritual needs.
Benefit Increase Stability by a value equal to Charisma or half the Knowledge: Religion skill of the Grand Vicar.
Vacancy Penalty Decrease Stability and Loyalty by 2. Increase Unrest by 1 during each Upkeep
phase in which the kingdom has no Grand Vicar.

Magister
The Magister guides a kingdom’s higher learning and magic.
Benefit Increase Economy by a value equal to half the Magister’s Knowledge: Arcana or Knowledge: Science skill plus 1 if the Magister has the Scholar Edge.
Vacancy Penalty Decrease Economy by 4.

Marshal
The Marshal leads the kingdom’s city defenders and city guards, and enforces justice in urban areas.
Benefit Increase Loyalty by a value equal to half the Streetwise or Knowledge Law skill of the Marshal’s. The investigator edge gives a additional +1 bonus.
Vacancy Penalty Reduce Loyalty by 4 and Stability by 2.

High Judge
The High Judge is the final arbiter of the law in the Kingdom.
Benefit Increase Loyalty by a value equal to half the High Judge’s Knowledge Law skill. The investigator edge gives a additional +1 bonus. Decrease Unrest by 1 during each Upkeep phase.
Vacancy Penalty None

Spymaster
The Spymaster observes the kingdom’s underworld/criminal elements and spies on other kingdoms.
Benefit Increase Loyalty, Economy, or Stability (Spymaster’s choice) by a value equal to half the Spymaster’s Deception or Notice skill, the investigator edge gives a +1 bonus. The Spymaster can change which value is modified during the kingdom’s Improvement phase (but only once per Kingdom Turn).
Vacancy Penalty Reduce Economy by 4 because of out-of-control crime. Increase Unrest by 1 during each Upkeep phase in which the kingdom has no Spymaster.

Treasurer
The Treasurer organizes tax collection and manages the treasury.
Benefit Increase Economy by a value equal to half the Treasurer’s Knowledge Economy skill.
Vacancy Penalty Reduce Economy by 4. The kingdom cannot collect taxes.

Warden
The Warden helps organize patrols and enforces justice in rural and wilderness regions.
Benefit Increase Economy by a value equal to half the Warden’s Tracking skill and add 1 for the Alertness Edge.
Vacancy Penalty Decrease Economy by 2, increase unrest by 1.

I added a bunch of events, some examples:
Contruct Building (Continous): Citizens are requesting a specific building be built. You can build the building during the next build phase or the Councilor can make a Loyalty check. A successful check means that the Councilor defuses the situation. A failed check means that the citizens continue to want the building, giving the nation +2 unrest each turn at the event phase. Unrest decreases by 2 if the requested building is built.

Evil Cult (Continuous): An evil cult has been established in or near one of your cities, until you root them out, unrest will increase by 2 per turn. Make a Stability check, with a minus for each city block in your city. If you succeed, your kingdom’s defenses stop the cult. On a natural 1, treat the city as being under an undead uprising even if the monsters might be elementals or demons. If you only make your Stability roll by 5, or less one or more leaders got away, and there is a 30% chance the cult will re-appear in 2d6 months.

Notable Investor: A tradesman, investor or other notable immigrant will pay half of the cost of a specific building. The building still counts against the building limit. The offer is valid for 1+1d6 months.

The Dread Polack
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#6 Postby The Dread Polack » Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:38 pm

quigs wrote:Also, I wouldn't let the PC's build more than 2 graveyards at the most. Who's going to want to live in a city full of graveyards anyways?


My character is a cleric of Pharasma, goddess of death. He would :mrgreen:

You're right, though.

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77IM
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#7 Postby 77IM » Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:45 pm

I finally read the Kingmaker rules. They're fantastic. The thing I like best is the relationship between Build Points, Upkeep, and Unrest. I love how if you miss your Upkeep it generates a bit of Unrest, and the constant penalties and gradual loss caused by Unrest are an interesting consequence.

The relationship of the 3 traits to the 2 resources is good. All of the character interactions and building options just modify the 3 traits, but it looks like it provides good options for interesting trade-offs.

Like all things PF, it is much to detailed and complicated for my tastes, but I still think it's a great read and could easily be streamlined/abstracted for SW use.

-- 77IM

Mylon
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#8 Postby Mylon » Sat Aug 04, 2012 6:56 am

Funny you say it's too detailed and complicated, I think it's too simplified! At least, it follows the boring 1d20 + modifier system of d20 for fairly predictable results. Buildings add flat modifiers, so if you have enough of the right buildings, a DC 35 loyalty check is no sweat! This just ends up making the d20 pretty irrelevant later on.

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#9 Postby 77IM » Mon Aug 06, 2012 10:33 pm

Sorry, I should not have used the word "complicated" without explanation. I mean Complexity of Mass, you are talking about Complexity of Implementation. (See Elements of Complexity)

-- 77IM

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#10 Postby samuraicrab » Tue Aug 07, 2012 2:42 pm

I haTE to be a stick in the mud but the HELLFROST: Resouce Management system is simplier by far. Seriously I recommend that you use it in your conversion.

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#11 Postby warrenss2 » Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:36 am

We played a FUDGE game (my pre-SW days) that was called Interactive History. It was a lot of run and it might translate to SW easily.
:blam:


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