HoE Reloaded First Impressions!

All discussions about the Wasted West and Way Out West settings. If system specific, please note in the subject line, [SW], [Classic], or [d20].

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Cutter XXIII
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#21 Postby Cutter XXIII » Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:10 am

Fuzyfeet wrote:
Clint wrote:Hi guys, a few notes...

First, it's 2097 not 2099. That was my flub. It's only been about six months or so since the Unity stuff.

Is that going to be fixed in the printed version?

It'll be fixed in the PDF. You just have to re-download the updated version when it's done.
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#22 Postby Clint » Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:32 pm

Yondalor wrote:The only dubious thing that caught my eye was the Harrowed Edge. I've learned to see edges as good things that give you bonuses and other fun stuff, so when I saw it I thought "Where's the fun in that?".


The character does get a free Harrowed Edge as well, so that might be fun.
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#23 Postby ScooterinAB » Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:48 pm

Here is my list of things I'm wondering about. I'm moving right now and short on money.

-What are Junkers like? This is a big point of contention for me, as I don't want to see them as bland, single power mad scientists who lack all of the flavor and abilities of junker magic.

-What are Templars like? This was something I hadn't figured out when working on conversion material.

-Who fired first? This was never detailed, and I'd love to know.

-Is it Deadlands? I'm in a constant argument with a friend of mine, who keeps saying that Reloaded is garbage and he'll never play it, but won't say why. I'm looking for more ways to cut through his excuses.
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#24 Postby shinryu » Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:25 pm

well, so far i'm quite pleased! there's actually a great deal of gear material i had wished was in the main SWD book, honestly, though i understand it's a bit fiddly. the vehicle creation system looks pretty swank as well and easily liftable to other genres. also really like the kung fu edge, as it gives some nice new ways to round out a character in different ways. a few questions after a first read on mechanics:

1) On the subject of kung fu, is it intended that you can only use one "style" in a round? I know the old DLR way was like this, wasn't sure if this was an intentional change or not. I think it's fine to have them stack, just wanted to make sure.

2) Why don't the templars use no power points? it seems like that would fit their older "feel" a bit better than power points, and you could add a trapping to healing that would prevent them from running it more than once a day per person like the old way. i suppose quickness abuse might be an issue too. i know there was some in game fluff about the switch, would be cool to see that in the companion.

3) Noticed there's no generic NA/SA assault rifles, just the XM-21 and the XM-40. Was that intentional? I remember them being somewhat different in the old books. I mean, easy enough to roll with M16 stats, but seemed like an oversight. Or do they use the SMG/carbines exclusively?

4) Some statistical oddities:

Noticed the hunting rifle did 2d8 rather than 2d8+1 (typo?).

AP for the .50 cal weapons is AP 2 rather than 4, intentionally a different cartridge than 50 BMG (guess the South went .50 Beowulf!) or also a typo? It's the same for the sniper rifles, would make sense if it was .50 for the assault rifle/machine gun and 4 for the rifles?

Damage for the NA commando is 2d6 despite being a 5.56 gun, seems like it should be 2d8? Otherwise seems a bit underpowered, Rof 4 aside.

Does the bipod actually do anything for the M-42? (pet peeve, bipods should give some bonus at long range I'd think). Also, electronic trigger works with Marksman I'd assume?

Otherwise, despite the lack of cyborgs, a serviceable product. Wait. Meant totally awesome product. That second one.

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#25 Postby Clint » Thu Jun 28, 2012 1:55 pm

ScooterinAB wrote:-What are Junkers like? This is a big point of contention for me, as I don't want to see them as bland, single power mad scientists who lack all of the flavor and abilities of junker magic.


Neither did we. ;)

Without going into specifics, would it help to know that Junkers have an innate Gadgeteer-like ability where they can shove a tech spirit into some components and create any power on the spot?

There's a little more to it, but that's the general idea.

ScooterinAB wrote:-What are Templars like? This was something I hadn't figured out when working on conversion material.


Short version again. Other than healing, their powers only work on them, but they start with Improved Trademark Weapon with their sword.

ScooterinAB wrote:-Who fired first? This was never detailed, and I'd love to know.


Actually, I think it was stated before, but it was A-Bomb Andy who pressed the first button so you know (the Union).

ScooterinAB wrote:-Is it Deadlands? I'm in a constant argument with a friend of mine, who keeps saying that Reloaded is garbage and he'll never play it, but won't say why. I'm looking for more ways to cut through his excuses.


No reason not to let him have his opinion if he's that committed to it.
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#26 Postby Clint » Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:45 pm

shinryu wrote:1) On the subject of kung fu, is it intended that you can only use one "style" in a round? I know the old DLR way was like this, wasn't sure if this was an intentional change or not. I think it's fine to have them stack, just wanted to make sure.


Well, none of them exactly "stack," but yeah, if more than one type is taken, all the benefits are gained simultaneously.

shinryu wrote:2) Why don't the templars use no power points? it seems like that would fit their older "feel" a bit better than power points, and you could add a trapping to healing that would prevent them from running it more than once a day per person like the old way. i suppose quickness abuse might be an issue too. i know there was some in game fluff about the switch, would be cool to see that in the companion.


As you noted, special cases and potential abuse. The No Power Points system was not inherently designed to be balanced in conjunction with the normal Power Points system; it was designed to be used instead of it for all ABs. Can they work together? Maybe, with work, but not designed that way.

Besides, once it was clear the Templars would be the AB most affected in the "new world order," the existing system made sense. Think about it, their power comes from people who fought the Reckoners, so what happens when the Reckoners are gone.

shinryu wrote:3) Noticed there's no generic NA/SA assault rifles, just the XM-21 and the XM-40. Was that intentional? I remember them being somewhat different in the old books. I mean, easy enough to roll with M16 stats, but seemed like an oversight. Or do they use the SMG/carbines exclusively?


Yeah, it was intentional. Those are their weapons. Much like Deadlands Reloaded, this is a new start, not a rehashing of old material.

shinryu wrote:Noticed the hunting rifle did 2d8 rather than 2d8+1 (typo?).


Not to my knowledge. Not sure why it would be a "typo."

shinryu wrote:AP for the .50 cal weapons is AP 2 rather than 4, intentionally a different cartridge than 50 BMG (guess the South went .50 Beowulf!) or also a typo?


Well, it's definitely a different cartridge; it's 70 years in the future, an alternate future at that. But ultimately, they don't have to match the Browning because Brownings aren't in HOE. Setting books trump core.

shinryu wrote:Damage for the NA commando is 2d6 despite being a 5.56 gun, seems like it should be 2d8? Otherwise seems a bit underpowered, Rof 4 aside.


It's an SMG, not a rifle. Damage isn't purely cartridge (primarily, but not purely).

shinryu wrote:Does the bipod actually do anything for the M-42? (pet peeve, bipods should give some bonus at long range I'd think). Also, electronic trigger works with Marksman I'd assume?


The bipod means the barrel isn't in the mud when set up to fire, but that's about it.

And yeah, electronic trigger applies to aiming and Marksman is an aim bonus.
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#27 Postby Demonicuss Krinn » Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:01 pm

Regarding Templars, PowerPoints or Non; I was thinking of the AB:Haunted from Weird War 2, and figured the Templars would be similar, with their "powers" just special Edges.

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#28 Postby StrayGeologist » Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:00 pm

My question has nothing to do with mechanics, and more to do with my innate love of maps.

Is there a MAP of the Wasted West? I thought it might be part of the inside cover like DL:Reloaded. Thats a great place to put it... but I'd love to see that map as part of the PDF copy too.

Any chance that could be inserted to the update?
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#29 Postby wanderingmystic » Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:10 pm

Clint wrote:
Demonicuss Krinn wrote:Re: Witches - yeah, kinda sad to see 'em not mentioned. Also not mentioned, Cyborgs. Which is kinda odd, as you'd think they'd be in there -(SPOILER) not to mention a certain NPC statted out has the fluff and crunch of cyborgs mentioned - it talked about Rules of Engagement and Cyborg Chassies. Maybe they dropped due to time or booksize or soemthing. Hopefully they'll be introduced later on.


Already in the works. HOE Reloaded is the core book for the setting, but a Companion is already planned to have the Plot Point Campaign plus more info on characters like Witches and Cyborgs.

You heard it here first! Unless you heard it somewhere else before. ;)


I am very glad to hear that a companion book in in the works, after reading through the material I felt like a players guide and not a complete setting book (no stats for all of the cool minor servitors running around) so I figured more was to come.

I do have a question now I know they were a weird concept and barely saw the light of day but AB: Librarians would be an amazing addition not only to the game setting but to show a different take on ABs .

I wanted to let the designer know that the rules for Junkers have to be the best AB I have ever read. You have really captured the feel that was presented in the original by adding components and giving them such versatility.

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#30 Postby shinryu » Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:43 pm

Clint wrote:
As you noted, special cases and potential abuse. The No Power Points system was not inherently designed to be balanced in conjunction with the normal Power Points system; it was designed to be used instead of it for all ABs. Can they work together? Maybe, with work, but not designed that way.

Besides, once it was clear the Templars would be the AB most affected in the "new world order," the existing system made sense. Think about it, their power comes from people who fought the Reckoners, so what happens when the Reckoners are gone.


Ah, gotcha. That makes sense.

Yeah, it was intentional. Those are their weapons. Much like Deadlands Reloaded, this is a new start, not a rehashing of old material.


Ok, was confused as there is a reference to an "NA assault rifle" in the description of the the TSAR, so I had thought maybe it had been accidentally excised.

Follow-up question: is the XM-21 then also capable of chambering standard 5.56 in addition to the ghost-rock firing mechanism? If it's standard issue I'd assume so, but previously it was sort of an odd gun. Nice that it doesn't kill you to use it any more though...

Not to my knowledge. Not sure why it would be a "typo."


Well, 7.62/30.06 weapons have typically been 2d8+1 (c.f. the M60?) Ok, wait. Actually there aren't any 30.06 weapons statted in SWD now that I look and the G3 does actually (if slightly inexplicably) do 2d8 damage. Am thinking Modern Ops stats evidently...

Well, it's definitely a different cartridge; it's 70 years in the future, an alternate future at that. But ultimately, they don't have to match the Browning because Brownings aren't in HOE. Setting books trump core.


Figured it might be a a different cartridge, since a .50 BMG assault rifle is... um... a special idea. And, hey, NA still rocking the 5.56, that's a pretty old cartridge in 2072, so the good old big fifty being around for snipers didn't seem a huge stretch.

But wow, HOE never developed Brownings (ANY Brownings? no BAR, no HP? Big deal for Noir, those guns; BAR is almost as essential as a Tommy gun to the period especially if you're playing or fighting certain gangsters...). That's a big-time divergence from a military perspective (small relative to the Reckoning and the Civil War and all, I suppose). That makes me think it might actually be a good section for the companion to mention what SWD modern weapons or other gear that might be assumed to exist were not actually developed in the timeline. I would totally assume that M16s were extant in HOE if I had not been told otherwise, for example. But if something as iconic as the M2 didn't happen I wouldn't feel too safe on that anymore.

It's an SMG, not a rifle. Damage isn't purely cartridge (primarily, but not purely).


Again, may be thinking of Modern Ops stats here. The carbine-type weapons listed under SMG in that book (AK-74SU, G36C, etc) lost range but not damage relative to the big brothers. Nothing similar is statted in SWD, so I guess that's a Modern Ops specific thing. Typically though it seems that damage isn't meaningfully altered by barrel length (c.f. the 9mm SMGs being no better off than 9mm pistols), so it stood out. Begging a similar question, then: the SA .50 SMG is using the rifle or the pistol ammunition? At 2d8 it could be downgraded-damage rifle ammo or full-power pistol ammo, and oddly seems to have its own entirely different ammo type in the prices section (which it shares with the machinegun?).

Also, teeny, irritating, annoying gun nerd note re Ruger Redhawks; virtually any .357 revolver fires .38 Special. Definitely not the other way around of course...

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#31 Postby ScooterinAB » Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:51 pm

Clint wrote:
ScooterinAB wrote:-What are Junkers like? This is a big point of contention for me, as I don't want to see them as bland, single power mad scientists who lack all of the flavor and abilities of junker magic.


Neither did we. ;)

Without going into specifics, would it help to know that Junkers have an innate Gadgeteer-like ability where they can shove a tech spirit into some components and create any power on the spot?
[/quote]

Yes... Yes it would. I'll have to wait to get the book to see the details, but that does allow for the impromptu and temporary nature of Junkers. I'm likely to spend some time converting more Classic material over, so I can look at that as the basis.

Thanks for the info.
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#32 Postby VonDan » Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:51 pm

Since in our game I made the leader of the Anti Templar's head explode and traded his axe to Simon for a sandwich there is no need for Anti Templar in HOE Reloaded

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#33 Postby ScooterinAB » Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:45 am

So, with all these Deadlands releases and announcements of late, does this mean the Deadlands movie is greenlit? Is Lucy Lawless still onboard?

Just kidding.
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#34 Postby Thunderforge » Fri Jun 29, 2012 10:52 am

ScooterinAB wrote:So, with all these Deadlands releases and announcements of late, does this mean the Deadlands movie is greenlit?.

You didn't know? There's already been two of them: Deadlands: The Rising and Deadlands 2: Trapped! There's also the spinoff movie that's only about one Deadland!

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#35 Postby Pseudonym » Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:27 pm

wanderingmystic wrote:I do have a question now I know they were a weird concept and barely saw the light of day but AB: Librarians would be an amazing addition not only to the game setting but to show a different take on ABs .


Ah Arcane Librarians! I was just going to ask if they were in! I've doing something weird with them in my games, but I've kinda just been cobbling together stuff I got from Shattered Coast and that one Epitaph issue, and twiddling my thumbs until I had some concrete Reloaded material for them. If there won't be anything until a companion book I may just have to be more bold with my home brew solution rather than glossing over the whole thing.

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#36 Postby smarttman » Sat Jun 30, 2012 2:58 pm

I was wondering if stats for Power Armor will be in the Plot Point book. Power Armor is mentioned in the Gazetter, but there are no stats for it

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#37 Postby MagusRogue » Sat Jun 30, 2012 8:21 pm

Ok, first impressions.

Hell on Earth? Reloaded?

HELL YES!

Ok that's out of the way, I like it. It's short and condensed (maybe a bit too condensed; I'll expouse below) but I dig it. I see Pinnacle's thoughts on trimming some of the fat (how many HoE books were there, I mean?) and how some of the Deadlands stuff didn't come over. All in all, though, I dig it and can't wait for the plot point book for more HoE goodness.

My real only bone of contention is this... I dunno, after Deadlands Reloaded, the book didn't feel complete. The former was written to not have to have SWD for many things (i'll expouse below) if you didn't get it. The latter, not so much. There's so many references to SWD, far more than in DL:R. Most I can understand (you guys had a page count to hit after all). One thing I missed out of HoE:R though was the magic section. DL:R did a great job of giving us most of the SW powers up front, and showing us the DL trappings. My huckster doesn't use Bolt, he uses Soul Blast!!! The Deluxe Deadlands document continued this awesomeness.

HoE:R, we didn't get this. Again I'm sure there was page count issues, but I feel its definately missing not to have the grimoire. Many of us will be looking to convert HOE Classic to HOE:R and having the trappings with spell names definately goes miles to converting. Yeah, the Doomsayer mentions Nuke translates to Blast, but...

I dunno. I feel an opportunity was missed here.

And don't take this massive post of negativity wrong. I LOVE the book and thank you guys for producing such awesomeness. Absolutely ecstatic. Just wanted to voice my one disappointment out of so much happiness. Maybe we can get a free doc giving us detailed trappings, to mesh better with DL:R and help conversions? Too much to ask right now?

I'll shut up.

P.S. Any chance for a Radiation and maybe a Toxic advanced trapping for our spells, to expand on those in SWD? Radiation DEFINITELY would be awesome (perhaps even mandatory?) for HOE:R for doomsayers as well as some junker inventions, while Toxic Shamans all over will love you for a toxic advanced trapping.

P.S.S. Noticed no Trappings entry for Templar powers. Do they have no manifestations? I'll have to drudge up my HOE Classic book to see if their powers there had noticable effects other than the Templar simply kicking your $$$ no contest.
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#38 Postby ValhallaGH » Sun Jul 01, 2012 8:09 am

MagusRogue wrote:P.S.S. Noticed no Trappings entry for Templar powers. Do they have no manifestations? I'll have to drudge up my HOE Classic book to see if their powers there had noticable effects other than the Templar simply kicking your $$$ no contest.

Lay on Hands makes the patient glow during the casting.
Everything else is "just" the Templar wrecking faces. The exception would be unique abilities (I'm thinking of Evanor from Something About a Sword) that have a specific additional trapping.
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#39 Postby Big Bad Jack » Sun Jul 01, 2012 10:40 am

I get that the Templar now have the Reckoners gone..

but from the lack of Fate Chips, and the way things are being discussed.. does that mean we don't have the Martyrs/Saints anymore?

That makes me sad, if so.... :(

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#40 Postby ValhallaGH » Sun Jul 01, 2012 1:32 pm

Big Bad Jack wrote:does that mean we don't have the Martyrs/Saints anymore?

They've been glossed over, and the individual Martyrs with unique chip-activated powers are not listed at all. Templars have several templar-only edges to choose from, representing the blessings of the various Martyrs and Saints; this is in addition to their awesome Templar magic.

The system they have in the book is very cool and powerful, but the idea of attracting the attention of Dorsey Gates, John Wayne, or Jenny Hise wasn't brought over in the core setting book.
... But, it was never in the core setting book. It was content that only appeared in Last Crusaders. So, it may be one of the things reappearing in the Companion (along with Power Armor and such). Probably not - those kinds of quirky, RP-heavy abilities are much more Marshal dependent than most of the Savage Worlds rules; they feel like something you can add to your campaign but are not appropriate to all campaigns, especially if no one in the posse is a Templar. :blam:


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