grapple with a called shot to the arm

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longarms
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grapple with a called shot to the arm

#1 Postby longarms » Thu Nov 25, 2010 12:43 am

There is an entangle edge in the Pirates setting (and probably in some other settings as well). It calls for a "disarm attack". If successful, the target counts as an unarmed defender. The defender requires a "break grapple" to escape.

I had a hard time memorizing the specific rules, until just the other day when I realized that the "disarm attack" was really just a grapple with a called shot to the right arm! And the benefit of a successful grapple to the right arm really just a grapple, but the attacker gets the added benefit of not being counted as an unarmed defender as per a normal grapple. Make so much more sense this way :lol:

The only question I have now is why does it require an edge! I've seen people here discussing "called shots" to initiate a grapple (such as a called shot to the head to get +4 damage on subsequent grapple checks). In these discussions, the extra benefit for the called shot did not require an edge to receive (you just got it for taking the penalty to hit on the original grapple). Anyone see any problem with using these rules anytime a PC makes a called shot to the right arm for a grapple? (got to give them some benefit that makes sense).


PS - I have been reading a book on martial arts in Medieval Europe. It contrasts between the clench (a standing grapple) and an "all in" grapple (a grapple on the ground). It mentioned that standing grapples were allowed the attacker to still defend himself against third parties, whereas obviously in an all-in grapple the attacker is obviously very vulnerable to attacks by third parties. Made me think of the "entangle" grapple vs. normal grapple in savage worlds...

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Rachan
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Re: grapple with a called shot to the arm

#2 Postby Rachan » Thu Nov 25, 2010 1:36 am

longarms wrote:I've seen people here discussing "called shots" to initiate a grapple (such as a called shot to the head to get +4 damage on subsequent grapple checks).


Entangle edge aside, I don't think you CAN call a shot on a grapple. You might flavor it up by saying "headlock" or "arm bar," but I don't think you get the attack penalties or damage bonuses.

And a +4 damage on subsequent grapples just sounds like milking the system. It's broken.
77IM wrote:… it's not specifically allowed by the rules, but the GM is specifically allowed to allow it. :wink:

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Granthar
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#3 Postby Granthar » Thu Nov 25, 2010 3:41 am

In my experience called shots only give you the extra damage because your objective is to cause direct damage. A grapple however is just imobilisation so I'm pretty sure my GM would allow the use of a called shot. Not sure if it would be better to try a wild attack to the arm to disarm instead?
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islan
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#4 Postby islan » Thu Nov 25, 2010 12:55 pm

A Called Shot is something you can do with any attack roll, and so it works with Grappling as well. However, you would not (necessarily) get +4 damage from putting someone in a headlock, as the damage caused by a Grapple is not directly tied to the Grapple roll as Grappling is a "non-damaging attack". The damage from Grappling is tied to a separate opposed Strength/Agility roll. I could be wrong on this, however, so please feel free to correct me.

I'm not sure on this one part, but can anyone point out to me where it says that characters engaged in a grapple are considered Unarmed Defenders?

Unless there is something more to this Edge that is not mentioned here, this sounds like a very poorly designed Edge, and a good example of what I talked about in this thread: http://www.peginc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=29584

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Raskolnik
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#5 Postby Raskolnik » Thu Nov 25, 2010 1:27 pm

Here's a comment of Clint about that:

Question: So, if I make my called shot [to the head] on round 1, I can continue getting +4 damage every round, automatically, until my opponent beats my grapple to get away?


Answer: I'd say so. The GM could continue to apply the -4 penalty to hold onto the target as well. The penalty continues, so the bonus would as well.

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Lord Lance
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#6 Postby Lord Lance » Fri Nov 26, 2010 7:04 am

About that edge, I have no rules under my nose, but I can imagine it give the ability to make a sort of grapple just with 1 arm/weapon, while standard grapple use all your "body", so you have to do that full unarmed and keeping yourself quite "busy".
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Clint
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#7 Postby Clint » Fri Nov 26, 2010 11:22 am

Lord Lance wrote:About that edge, I have no rules under my nose, but I can imagine it give the ability to make a sort of grapple just with 1 arm/weapon, while standard grapple use all your "body", so you have to do that full unarmed and keeping yourself quite "busy".


Exactly. That Edge specifies that the character can entangle the opponent with one arm and still attack him with the other. Regular grapples use both hands by default.
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islan
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#8 Postby islan » Fri Nov 26, 2010 9:42 pm

Clint wrote:
Exactly. That Edge specifies that the character can entangle the opponent with one arm and still attack him with the other. Regular grapples use both hands by default.


Ah, then that makes it a much more useful Edge.

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77IM
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Re: grapple with a called shot to the arm

#9 Postby 77IM » Sat Nov 27, 2010 10:36 am

longarms wrote:I've seen people here discussing "called shots" to initiate a grapple (such as a called shot to the head to get +4 damage on subsequent grapple checks).


I like this rule, because it gives a lot more variety to grappling for very little effort. I have one guy in my group who does a lot of martial arts and is always wanting to do crazy grapples so it helps to just say "called shot" and be done with it.

-- 77IM


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