Another Centaur > need feedback

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Takeda
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Another Centaur > need feedback

#1 Postby Takeda » Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:28 am

This is from the Non-Core Rules thread now updated with Clint's answer. If you want to see that FC Size affects Strength? and this post and query to this gestalt that is our forum is the result.

So here is where this leaves me in the process of making the Centaur a playable race that doesn't break the bank.

  • (4 pts) Size +2 which grants +2 toughness.
  • (3 pts) +2d starting Strengt, maximum is d12+2, d12+4 with professional advancements.
  • (0.5 pts) Natural Weapons (Strength), this would usually be Strength+d6 (or Str+d4 for all natural weapons) but as only Strength dmg only gets the effective of not be considered unarmed.
  • (1.5 to 1.75 pts) Fleet-footed, base pace 8 and d8 on a run so not as good as the Fleet-Footed edge.
    Thus on the plus side comes out +9.

    Balance this with effectively:
  • (-1 pt) Can't Climb. Physically ill-suited to climbing suffering a -4 to any climbing attempts. All Climb skill development is as if they were above their linked stat. (Thus 2 pts to open, 2 pts for every die step thereafter.)
  • (-3 pts) Inconvenient size, -2 Stealth, can't fit in many places, double cost for food, gear, accommodation, -2 Charisma for being a quadruped of +2 size in a biped +0 size world.
Last edited by Takeda on Sat Jul 30, 2011 5:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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#2 Postby 77IM » Thu Feb 04, 2010 2:00 pm

This looks pretty good so far.

It looks like you are at a net +5 right now. You may wish to drop the Str to d6 (why not allow a centaur to have Str d6?). Also, I would drop the natural weapon. Hooves are pretty cool but I think most of the damage from a horse's kick comes from its Str. Having a natural weapon means that a centaur never faces an "unarmed defender" penalty, and that doesn't make sense to me. If you are trying to replicate the centaur monster stats exactly, maybe introduce a Hoof Kick racial Edge that gives them a Str+d6 natural weapon, and just say that the guy in the book has that Edge. Also I recommend separating the -2 Charisma into its own trait (equivalent of Outsider) just for clarity.

Anyhow, that drops it down to a net +3. Whenever I find myself in this situation, I just give Humans a free d6 in a Skill, and call +3 balanced. ;} An alternative is to remove a point of Size, and make it a Racial Edge (Centaur Might: Your Size increases to +2, and you may use advances to raise Strength above d12, to a maximum of d12+2, or d12+4 with the Professional Edges).

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#3 Postby Takeda » Thu Feb 04, 2010 2:51 pm

In the FC Centaurs only do Str damage with a hoof attack, that's why I modelled it after that.

So you think the Inconvenient Size is worth -3 without the -2 charisma? I was a little torn on that ... having just -2 Stealth and double food/gear/accomadation costs and can't fit in a lot of places sounds a little weak for a -3 ... maybe -2.
Having a seperate outsider one for another -2 puts them at a net +4 if everything else remains the same.

I was thinking of adding a Quirk: Loves red wine, tends to binge on it whenever its available. Ultimately if you have a Centaur settlement nearby you know you always have a eager market for your red wine and can probably get top dollar for it.

That's put it to +3 ... and then ... and then?! I'm thinking of giving them a net -3 xp at Novice to make up.
Dean: "Ya' know she could be faking."

Sam: "Yeah, what do you wanna do, poke her with a stick?"

[Dean nods]

Sam: "Dude, you're not gonna poke her with a stick?"

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#4 Postby Clint » Thu Feb 04, 2010 3:32 pm

I think the positive build is pretty accurate, though I might break it down as...

Big: Size+2; +2 Toughness and 4x Load Limit, but 4x Food/Water requirements.
Strong: +2 die types to Strength and can raise to d12+2 (d12+4)
Hooves: Does not count as Unarmed Defender if hooves are free.
Fast: Pace 8 and d8 Running Die (can increase to Pace 10 and d12 with Fleet Footed).

The negative abilities I'm not as sure about. I generally roll increase food/water and equipment needs into Size, countering it with the increased Load Limit. I could see the drawbacks of being a quadruped but not so much in Charisma or Stealth.

I might go with...

Quadruped: Suffers a -2 penalty to rolls where four legs would be inconvenient (like squeezing through a dwarf-sized tunnel or sneaking through a forest of dried leaves) and a -4 penalty where it would be a major handicap (climbing a sheer wall or tree).
Horizontal: Centaurs fill a 1"x2" space which allows for more foes to attack them. Since (unlike horses) their eyes are primarily facing forward, foes may benefit from improved Gang Up bonuses against them. Each additional attacker grants a +2 bonus up to a maximum of +6 (for three additional foes).
Racial Enemy: Centaurs are natural enemies of both Arachnaurs and Scorpion Men. The races rarely leave each other alive, but when they must interact it is at -4 Charisma.
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#5 Postby 77IM » Thu Feb 04, 2010 4:06 pm

Takeda wrote:So you think the Inconvenient Size is worth -3 without the -2 charisma? I was a little torn on that ... having just -2 Stealth and double food/gear/accomadation costs and can't fit in a lot of places sounds a little weak for a -3 ... maybe -2.
Having a seperate outsider one for another -2 puts them at a net +4 if everything else remains the same.

No, I think the inconvenient size is worth only a (-2), and the Outsider is only a (-1) per the rules. I was not suggesting you change the values, just reorganize them, because I don't think being big will make others like you less. (Studies show that taller people get more respect, right?)

If you are stuck at (+3) net value, I wouldn't impose an XP penalty, that way leads madness. You can get an equivalent effect by finding 1 point's worth of traits to convert into a Racial Edge and let centaur players choose whether/when to select it. I prefer NOT to have my PC races look exactly like the monster stat block since often this means massive racial bonuses and penalties, the very dilemma you face now. I just say that the bestiary stat block is of a "leveled-up" centaur, and the racial traits are a beginning centaur.

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#6 Postby Coffee Zombie » Sun Feb 14, 2010 3:33 pm

Clint wrote:Racial Enemy: Centaurs are natural enemies of both Arachnaurs and Scorpion Men. The races rarely leave each other alive, but when they must interact it is at -4 Charisma.


I've grabbed your build, Clint, except for the above point; being a natural enemy to two obscure races is not something I would let go in a typical game (it might never enter play, or must because it's a flaw). May I propose;

Fearsome Reputation: Centaurs are territorial creatures with little patience for those who intrude upon their plains. They have a -2 Charisma penalty because of their reputation for being merciless savages, and their ire that is drawn when people mention this reputation to them.
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#7 Postby Takeda » Sun Feb 14, 2010 4:17 pm

arthurfallz wrote:
Clint wrote:Racial Enemy: Centaurs are natural enemies of both Arachnaurs and Scorpion Men. The races rarely leave each other alive, but when they must interact it is at -4 Charisma.


I've grabbed your build, Clint, except for the above point; being a natural enemy to two obscure races is not something I would let go in a typical game (it might never enter play, or must because it's a flaw). May I propose;

Fearsome Reputation: Centaurs are territorial creatures with little patience for those who intrude upon their plains. They have a -2 Charisma penalty because of their reputation for being merciless savages, and their ire that is drawn when people mention this reputation to them.


Well the Centaur is in the same list of obscure creatures so I'd allow it. If you used the Centaur in a world where they didn't exist of course your suggestion would be appropriate.

Overall I like Clint's translation. Not that it should come as any surprise! LOL :)
Dean: "Ya' know she could be faking."

Sam: "Yeah, what do you wanna do, poke her with a stick?"

[Dean nods]

Sam: "Dude, you're not gonna poke her with a stick?"

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#8 Postby otherdoc » Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:33 pm

Funny, I've just been working on a Centaur PC race myself. I've started putting together a Savage Rome game so the racial edges & hindrances I've been concocting are specific to that setting. I did something where I took the Berserk edge and stripped it of all its benefits to reflect a more savage, hot-headed kind of centaur like the ones who fought the Lapithae and a Regional Enemy (Greeks).

But, that said, after looking at Clint's version I have a feeling I may be stealing it instead. :)
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Re:

#9 Postby Lord Lance » Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:29 pm

Clint wrote:Horizontal: Centaurs fill a 1"x2" space which allows for more foes to attack them. Since (unlike horses) their eyes are primarily facing forward, foes may benefit from improved Gang Up bonuses against them. Each additional attacker grants a +2 bonus up to a maximum of +6 (for three additional foes).

Hi Clint. How much you'll price this "hindrance"?

About the usage, a clarification:
let's say the centaur is vs. 2 enemies. Do those enemies have +3 each to attack the centaur?
let's say the centaur is vs. 10 enemies. Do those enemies have +10 each to attack the centaur?
... or...
Are the things different, and the extra bonus "kick in" when the centaur is vs. 6+ enemies? Ie: if the centaur is vs. 5 enemies, they have +4 to attack, but if there are 6 enemies, the bonus becomes +6 to attack (ie. +4 and the "first" extra +2).
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Re: Another Centaur > need feedback

#10 Postby Ilina_Young » Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:07 am

Time to Put this under the Sci Companion's Char Gen Rules which are the most Recent Variation i know of

Size +1 (1 Point)
Strength +1 die Type (2 Points)
Pace 8 (1 Point)

Hindrances:

-1 to Agility Rolls (-2 points, horse legs are hard to turn and pivot properly)


here is a simpler Centuar if you don't mind it.

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Re: Re:

#11 Postby Clint » Mon Jan 16, 2017 1:14 pm

Lord Lance wrote:
Clint wrote:Horizontal: Centaurs fill a 1"x2" space which allows for more foes to attack them. Since (unlike horses) their eyes are primarily facing forward, foes may benefit from improved Gang Up bonuses against them. Each additional attacker grants a +2 bonus up to a maximum of +6 (for three additional foes).

Hi Clint. How much you'll price this "hindrance"?


Not that specific, I'm afraid. I pretty much priced Quadruped and Horizontal together as worth -4 or even -4.5 (the .5 being for the hooves).

Lord Lance wrote:About the usage, a clarification:
let's say the centaur is vs. 2 enemies. Do those enemies have +3 each to attack the centaur?
let's say the centaur is vs. 10 enemies. Do those enemies have +10 each to attack the centaur?
... or...
Are the things different, and the extra bonus "kick in" when the centaur is vs. 6+ enemies? Ie: if the centaur is vs. 5 enemies, they have +4 to attack, but if there are 6 enemies, the bonus becomes +6 to attack (ie. +4 and the "first" extra +2).


Neither. They are different and separate.

Their size allows more foes to attack them is one thing, meaning they could face up to 10 attacks instead of 8.
Improved Gang Up is a different effect where foes get +2 per additional attacker instead of +1 up to a max of +6 instead of +4.

Centaur vs. 2 enemies, each would have +2 to Fighting (one additional adds +2).
Centaur vs. 3 enemies, each would have +4 to Fighting (two additional adds +4).
Centaur vs. 4-10 enemies, each has +6 (three or more additional maxes out at +6).

Though really now for simplicity (and balance), I'd probably limit the max to +4 just like normal Gang Up. Just means it only takes 2 additional foes instead of 4 to reach that.
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Re: Re:

#12 Postby Lord Lance » Tue Jan 17, 2017 1:27 pm

Clint wrote:Though really now for simplicity (and balance), I'd probably limit the max to +4 just like normal Gang Up. Just means it only takes 2 additional foes instead of 4 to reach that.

Yeah, this could be better. I could use it in the future.
However, I'll probably stick with a simpler: Poor Defense (-1): A centaur's unusual body shape makes it more difficult to defend themselves in combat. They suffer from a -1 to Parry.

I think that both the version should be "priced" -1. 'cause they are pretty similar. While Poor Defense starts from vs. 1 enemy, and it gives a worst malus when the centaur is vs. 5+ enemies, Horizontal starts with a bigger malus, and caps faster.
Also, in some setting it's easier to remove gangup handicap thanks to 1 or 2 dedicated Edges, as it's pretty easy to recover from the -1 parry too.

Code: Select all

     enemies> | vs. 1 | vs. 2 | vs. 3 | vs. 4 | vs. 5+ |
Poor Defense  |  -1   |   -2  |   -3  |   -4  |   -5   |
Horizontal    |  -0   |   -2  |   -4  |   -4  |   -4   |

So, in the end, I think they should both be priced equally.

About Quadruped, I'd give a price of -2 ~ -3. It's pretty similar to a reversed "Skill Bonus" racial ability, that gives a fixed -2 to a single skill. Quadruped gives -0 in normal situations, -2 to various skills in specific situations, and -4 in very specific ones.
Finally, this is "my" Centaur:
Big (+2,5): Size+2; +2 Toughness and 4x Load Limit.
Very Strong (+4): +2 die types to Strength.
Hooves (+0,5): Does not count as Unarmed Defender if hooves are free.
Fast (+1): Pace 8 and d8 Running Die (can increase to Pace 10 and d12 with Fleet Footed).
Fearsome Reputation (-1): Centaurs are territorial creatures with little patience for those who intrude upon their plains. They have a -2 Charisma penalty because of their reputation for being merciless savages, and their ire that is drawn when people mention this reputation to them.
Hungry As A Horse (-1): Centaurs must eat an impressive amount of food. Centaurs need at least four times the amount of food as a regular human every 24 hours or they will begin to starve.
Poor Defense (-1): A centaur's unusual body shape makes it more difficult to defend themselves in combat. They suffer from a -1 to Parry.
Quadruped (-3): Suffers a -2 penalty to rolls where four legs would be inconvenient (like squeezing through a dwarf-sized tunnel or sneaking through a forest of dried leaves) and a -4 penalty where it would be a major handicap (climbing a sheer wall or tree).
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Re: Re:

#13 Postby Deskepticon » Tue Jan 17, 2017 3:42 pm

Lord Lance wrote: Big (+2,5): Size+2; +2 Toughness and 4x Load Limit.
Very Strong (+4): +2 die types to Strength.
Hooves (+0,5): Does not count as Unarmed Defender if hooves are free.
Fast (+1): Pace 8 and d8 Running Die (can increase to Pace 10 and d12 with Fleet Footed).
Fearsome Reputation (-1): Centaurs are territorial creatures with little patience for those who intrude upon their plains. They have a -2 Charisma penalty because of their reputation for being merciless savages, and their ire that is drawn when people mention this reputation to them.
Hungry As A Horse (-1): Centaurs must eat an impressive amount of food. Centaurs need at least four times the amount of food as a regular human every 24 hours or they will begin to starve.
Poor Defense (-1): A centaur's unusual body shape makes it more difficult to defend themselves in combat. They suffer from a -1 to Parry.
Quadruped (-3): Suffers a -2 penalty to rolls where four legs would be inconvenient (like squeezing through a dwarf-sized tunnel or sneaking through a forest of dried leaves) and a -4 penalty where it would be a major handicap (climbing a sheer wall or tree).


This is probably the build I would use for a generic centaur PC. Very nice.

Fearsome Reputation can easily be swapped out when the race is used in a specific setting, but fits as a general racial ability.


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