How big could a game be?

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zomben
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How big could a game be?

#1 Postby zomben » Thu May 05, 2011 2:32 pm

A pal of mine and I are talking about building armies for "Hail Caesar!" a new 28mm historical minis game.

I'm going to be building an army of Saxons, and pitching in a few 'wizard' and 'hero' type characters to be able to use the same army in fantasy skirmishes.

I'm curious, how many miniatures to a side is really the 'upper limit' of a SW Showdown game? When all's said and done, I'll probably have close to 100 figures on my side.

Would SW:S be able to handle an army of that size?

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Lord Inar
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#2 Postby Lord Inar » Thu May 05, 2011 3:31 pm

How are they "blocked"? About ten per group?

That's still at least 20 cards per turn, so you're quite likely to see at least one joker every turn.

Also, as long as most of them are extras and not wildcards, it could work.

Others with more experience could chime in.

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#3 Postby VonDan » Thu May 05, 2011 3:57 pm

Did I ever mention the time I found boxes of those Italian copies of EMT/Ertle historical miniatures in 1/72 scale for $1 a box of 50? I walked out of the store with a command force of 2000 (the famous Field Marshall Von Dan’s 1/72 division). And they had Romans and the enemies of Rome (Dancians who look just like Celts)

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#4 Postby islan » Fri May 06, 2011 8:13 am

VonDan wrote:Did I ever mention the time I found boxes of those Italian copies of EMT/Ertle historical miniatures in 1/72 scale for $1 a box of 50? I walked out of the store with a command force of 2000 (the famous Field Marshall Von Dan’s 1/72 division). And they had Romans and the enemies of Rome (Dancians who look just like Celts)


:eek: You must have quite the mini collection, sir.

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If mostly extras in large squads, yes.

#5 Postby DanDiamond » Fri May 06, 2011 9:27 am

If mostly extras in large squads, yes. Having them melee instead of ranged would help (they only roll to attack if in actual contact, not every time). Having them be relatively weak troops would also help, as elements leave the board the game becomes smaller.

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#6 Postby zomben » Sat May 07, 2011 6:37 pm

Thanks for the replies, all. Sorry, I wasn't notified there'd been further discussion.

My guess was that there'd be maybe ten figures to a squad, and maybe 4-6 squads per side.

I didn't realize you'd do initiative cards for each figure. How would it change up the game to just do a card for each unit, or each Wild Card?

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#7 Postby DanDiamond » Sun May 08, 2011 12:08 pm

You were right the first time: initiative cards for each unit, wildcards being separate units. When I said "as elements leave the board", I meant elements as retreating units, not individual figures.

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#8 Postby Fury » Mon May 09, 2011 5:49 pm

zomben wrote:A pal of mine and I are talking about building armies for "Hail Caesar!" a new 28mm historical minis game.

Interesting thread! I'm still waiting for my copy of Hail Caesar... :(
"We are the Queen's shield. We are the nation's shield."
—Sir Nicholas Fury, 1602

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#9 Postby Thunderforge » Mon May 09, 2011 8:06 pm

zomben wrote:I didn't realize you'd do initiative cards for each figure. How would it change up the game to just do a card for each unit, or each Wild Card?

Just to clarify, you do one initiative card for a group of extras (which move as a "unit"). For instance, in the Brides of Dracula sample battle on the Pinnacle homepage, Van Helsing's side has three groups consisting of five extra Hirelings. Rather than having 15 cards, each group of five gets a single card, thus three cards in total for the hirelings.

So a group of extras is a "unit" and a single wild card is a "unit."

(At least that's how I understand the rules. Maybe I've been doing it wrong this whole time).

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#10 Postby Lord Inar » Mon May 09, 2011 8:39 pm

No, you're right, I was just going on the assumption that with 100 per side, they would probably be broken into groups of 10, which translates to 10 cards per side, resulting in 20 cards dealt per initiative round, not including any wild cards.

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#11 Postby Thunderforge » Tue May 10, 2011 12:34 pm

Gotcha, didn't catch the math at first. And you're right, 20 cards does seem like a lot.

I suppose it could work if you kept some units as "reserve" units to enter later in the battle after the skirmishers have fallen. Alternatively, you might be able to find some clever way to scale things at different points in the battle. Maybe at the beginning where everyone is mostly just marching and only the front lines are fighting, you might be able to let one card cover 20 figures or so. Later on once the fighting becomes more chaotic and you have fighting on multiple fronts, then you break it down to 10 figures per card.

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#12 Postby John Goff » Tue May 10, 2011 2:06 pm

I agree. Twenty cards a turn is going to net you a ton of Jokers! Now, if you're looking for a little chaos in the battle, that might be fine... :wink:

If you break the units down later in the combat, be sure to decide how you're going to handle unit cohesion. For example, do the figures have to stay within cohesion range of the others in their original grouping or do they only need to keep cohesion with those in their new "unit"? Also, can a player opt to just break down a unit to avoid a cohesion issue during a battle? (By the way, I'd personally say no, because that seems ripe for abuse. Maybe the turn before you break the unit down designate it as such so that it can't be a reactive tactic.)

It's not a crucial point, but I've found it's usually a good idea to sort those things out up front.
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#13 Postby VonDan » Tue May 10, 2011 3:36 pm

islan wrote:
VonDan wrote:Did I ever mention the time I found boxes of those Italian copies of EMT/Ertle historical miniatures in 1/72 scale for $1 a box of 50? I walked out of the store with a command force of 2000 (the famous Field Marshall Von Dan’s 1/72 division). And they had Romans and the enemies of Rome (Dancians who look just like Celts)


:eek: You must have quite the mini collection, sir.



Field Marshall VonDan's 1\72 Division



Unit Strength Unite Type Unit Name


100 Barbarian Warriors Danicca Tribe on the Danub River
100 Roman Infantry Danus Brutus XIII Legion
45 1066 Anglo Saxons House of HalfDan
47 1500 Aztecs Danazuma
44 1500 Conquistadors Hernan Cordan’s Conquistadors
200 1800 British Infantry MacDan Highlanders
200 1800 British Colonial Infantry Danpoy Scouts
100 1806 Austro Prussian Infantry Danburg Jagurs
12 1812 French Heavy Cavalry
100 1812 Russian Infantry St DanielGrad City Guard
16 1815 British Artillery Royal Danshire Artillery
12 1815 British Heavy Cavalry
24 1815 British light Cavalry Danwick Light Horse
12 1815 French Artillery Field Bateries "D", "A" and "N"
250 1815 French Infantry LeDan Granadier Guards
12 1815 Polish Lancers Danzig Lancers
50 19th Cen African warriors ShakaDan Zulu Clan
50 19th Cen Muslim Warriors AllaDan Warriors of God
200 1863 Confederate Infantry Danner's Brigade CSA
150 1863 Union Infantry
50 1900 French Foreign Legion Legion Au' Dan
100 WW I French Infantry
100 WW I German Infantry
100 WW II British Commando O'Dannells Destroyers SAS Commando 13
50 WW II French Infantry
50 WW II German Afrika Corps ReichDan SS Troop
100 WW II Italian Alpini Danoldo's Devels
200 WW II U S Infantry Ranger Force D, The Danger Rangers, the Big Red “D”
98 WWII Russian Infantry Comrade Dancheck's partisans
100 Vietcong Infantry Ho Chi Dan Happy Dragon Battalion
200 US Special Forces DanForce Recon Patrol


well the table format is messed up but you get the idea
Last edited by VonDan on Sun Jul 20, 2014 12:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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#14 Postby Lord Inar » Tue May 10, 2011 4:20 pm

VonDan wrote:Field Marshall VonDan's 1\72 Division


I hate you for having all that many minis (and I don't).

But seriously, you could do some awesome "Time Warriors" stuff with all those minis!

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#15 Postby VonDan » Tue May 10, 2011 4:30 pm

Those are ONLY the 1/72 scale. I have another 1000 1/32 scale army men in about 15 types with accesories packed in three 18 gal tubs, a 18 cal tub of D&D min and a 18 Gal tub of Clix and maybe a tub of mixed other stuff

and a lego castle and mega castle and rocks and trees and a 8 foot table

And have never played with any of them

Oh and I forgot the golf bag of swords but that tends to scare peple away from gaming

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#16 Postby Hrusk » Thu May 19, 2011 3:03 pm

I've tried playing games with large groups of minis. So far I've found three problems...

more squads equals more cards. Too many cards and you'll start cluttering the tabletop as well as seeing the joker every turn.

when you have 5 guys dealing 2 dice of damage each, resolving damage is manageable. Not so when you have 10 or 20, or even more.

keeping track of shaken results for individual models is difficult when you have 10-20+ models.

I've come up with house-rules that I feel would fix these problems, although I have not really playtested them yet. COnsider these:

If you have too many cards, go ahead and just leave them out: take turns moving and firing with one squad until all the squads have been moved. IF there's a lot of squads, include a token that indicates the squad has moved this turn.

reduce damage dice to the old Savage Worlds model: one die per hit + a damage bonus. That way, if 7 guys hit, you can pick up 7 dice, calculate what you need to shake/wound, and roll them all at once.

Instead of placing shaken markers on individual units, shaken tokens are associated with the squad in general. When a squad has at least one shaken token for every two members, (.ie 50% of the squad is shaken), the whole squad moves at half Pace and cannot fire weapons. A squad can elect not to fire on its turn in order to recover from its shaken status - roll one spirit die per shaken token and remove one token on a success, two on a raise.

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#17 Postby John Goff » Thu May 19, 2011 3:13 pm

I'd draw cards for Wild Cards or maybe similar unit groups, just to keep the card draw mechanic in there for a couple of reasons. One, it keeps a random element involved in tactical planning, which I personally enjoy. Two, without the cards, you don't have a chance at triggering Fortune & Calamity.

You can certainly cut those out to streamline play, but for me, the random factors are a big part of the "Fun!"
John Goff

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#18 Postby frankfrey » Tue Jun 14, 2011 7:51 am

I've just started doing some ACW skirmishing using Showdown. What I do is organize my troops along historical lines.
1 x SGT (Wild Card)
2 x 8 Man Squads
The squads are counted as Allies of the SGT and as long as they maintain cohesion and are within the 5" command radius of the SGT then they all move together on the SGT's card.

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#19 Postby jpk » Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:30 pm

I've found that if your cards are cluttering up your table, getting a pack of the small souvenir cards (or Bicycle does sell a miniature deck of similar proportions) takes care of it.


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