New Incapacitation Table

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Pfr_Fate
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#41 Postby Pfr_Fate » Sat Oct 24, 2009 6:32 am

Harlan Whitfield wrote:Any chance that these errata can be reflected in the SWEX GM screen inserts?


Second that.
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#42 Postby TheLoremaster » Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:55 am

Pfr_Fate wrote:
Harlan Whitfield wrote:Any chance that these errata can be reflected in the SWEX GM screen inserts?

Second that.

Or an updated SWEX PDF?
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#43 Postby Spence » Sat Oct 24, 2009 1:24 pm

I am happy to see the errata is formatted so you can insert (tape) it into your book.

It always annoyed me when the errata was formatted in a manner that made it impossible to actually add to the book.

Thanks guys!

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#44 Postby The GIT! » Sat Oct 24, 2009 5:31 pm

jerepp wrote:I too would miss the bleeding out that gives you time to bleed out. So on a failure if they make that spirit roll. On the following turn(s) I'd have them make a vigor roll, on success effects are as in the Errata, on failure rather than immediately dying I'd give the character an extra level of fatigue until they run out at which point character slips into death. Critical failure means immediate death. Still pretty quick bleed out but does give a bit of time for intervention. And don't forget Fatigue and Wound penalties stack.

This is interesting - I think I'll adopt it with the new tables. Nice idea.

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#45 Postby The Angle » Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:11 pm

I think that people may have been reading the old table wrong.

Failure: The victim is bleeding out. At the start of each round, he must make another Vigor roll (with applicable penalties). A failure means he has to roll again next round. A result of 1 or less means the poor sap dies (as a Critical Failure).Success means he stabilizes but remains unconscious.


After the first roll on the table, you don't need a critical failure to die; any modified result of 1 or less will do it. It's pretty easy to roll 4 or less on both dice. With d6 Vigor + wild die and a -3 modifier, the chance to succeed and stabilize = 30%. The chance to roll 4 or less on both dice and die = 44%, repeated every turn. With d8 Vigor, the odds change to 38% and 33% respectively.

Unless you're playing a game with magical healing, a healing check takes 10 minutes. There's no "I make a healing check and get back in the fight" unless you're throwing spells. Even if you allow Vigor checks to stop as soon as the healer begins giving first aid (which I expect is the intent), the healer is totally out of the action once he goes to work. He can't fight and he can't help anyone else. The character who's dying is pretty much guaranteed to be in the enemy's line of fire -- that's how he got incapacitated in the first place -- so it's likely that the medic also needs to spend a round dragging the body to a safe spot before any healing can begin. If the wounded character is lying next to an enemy, that's another complication and probably more chances to die. If the dying character draws a higher initiative card than the medic, there's another Vigor roll he needs to make.

In most of our games where characters have gone down, it's because the fight is going badly to begin with. Rushing to the aid of a fallen foe and taking yet another character out of the fight often isn't an option. I can't recall too many instances where a character survived a trip to the Incapacitation table. With its acing damage rolls that drop a character with one hit, Savage Worlds is already more than deadly enough for my taste. I appreciate the effort to keep the game moving forward, but I think I'll stick with the table in the book.

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#46 Postby Clint » Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:43 pm

The Angle wrote:Unless you're playing a game with magical healing, a healing check takes 10 minutes. There's no "I make a healing check and get back in the fight" unless you're throwing spells.


Actually, there is in this instance. A healing roll to stabilize a character who is Bleeding Out only takes an action. It's not the same use as rolling to actually heal wounds.

http://www.peginc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=243601&highlight=stabilize#243601

Playing it that way would certainly increase the odds of death especially in a setting where arcane healing was not available.
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#47 Postby Aramus Daimorgul » Mon Nov 23, 2009 1:19 pm

For my house rules, I have included the "bleeding out" rules but replaced the "1 or less result with "roll a 1 on the Vigor die". This is also the case with the initial roll - replacing the "critical failure" result with "roll a 1 on the Vigor die". I do this so you are not looking at two charts and so bleeding out is not so brutal. It is brutally killer with the "1 or less" result while bleeding out. It does kill a bit more on the initial roll - but that is what bennies are for...

I also do this for healing and natural healing. Rather than having two charts I combined them replacing the "roll a 1 or less" result on the healing chart and the "critical failure" result on the natural healing table with "roll a 1 on the Vigor die". This makes healing and natural healing equally dangerous. I did not like that a medic on the battlefield would kill often and it simplifies the charts.

Couple of questions pertaining to the new rules:
1. Injured legs- if you have a "lame" left leg and get hit again and get the "lame" result again on your left leg, your leg is destroyed and you are gain "one-leg" what if you get a lame result on the let and right legs. This could also be figured for the blinded and arms results.
2. With the NE reoccurring roles setting rule, is a "critical failure" result simply count as unconscious for 1d6 days? A "failure" result forces a spirit check or unconscious for 1d6 days and then next round a vigor check or unconscious for 1d6 days otherwise unconscious until all wounds are healed. A "success" they are unconscious for an hour or earlier with a successful healing skill roll. Do I have all of that right? Any suggestions on how to aplly the rules update to this setting rule better?
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#48 Postby Clint » Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:14 pm

Aramus Daimorgul wrote:1. Injured legs- if you have a "lame" left leg and get hit again and get the "lame" result again on your left leg, your leg is destroyed and you are gain "one-leg" what if you get a lame result on the let and right legs. This could also be figured for the blinded and arms results.


Note that there is no longer any roll for which leg, Lame is not specific to one leg or the other; it's simply a reduction in Pace and Running. And so if the character already has Lame, then they end up with the "One Leg" Hindrance. Whatever the damage is, it is the equivalent of losing the total use of one leg.

Aramus Daimorgul wrote:2. With the NE reoccurring roles setting rule, is a "critical failure" result simply count as unconscious for 1d6 days? A "failure" result forces a spirit check or unconscious for 1d6 days and then next round a vigor check or unconscious for 1d6 days otherwise unconscious until all wounds are healed. A "success" they are unconscious for an hour or earlier with a successful healing skill roll. Do I have all of that right? Any suggestions on how to aplly the rules update to this setting rule better?


Basically, if the character would die based on the Incapacitation result, then they are Incapacitated for 1d6 days instead. They don't necessarily have to remain unconscious, but they are Incapacitated.
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#49 Postby Aramus Daimorgul » Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:57 pm

Clint wrote:
Aramus Daimorgul wrote:1. Injured legs- if you have a "lame" left leg and get hit again and get the "lame" result on your left leg, your leg is destroyed and you gain "one-leg" what if you get a lame result on the left and right legs. This could also be figured for the blinded and arms results.


Note that there is no longer any roll for which leg, Lame is not specific to one leg or the other; it's simply a reduction in Pace and Running. And so if the character already has Lame, then they end up with the "One Leg" Hindrance. Whatever the damage is, it is the equivalent of losing the total use of one leg.

So you would roll which leg only after you gain the "one-leg" hindrance but not when you gain the "lame" hindrance.
And this holds true on arms and eyes too?

Clint wrote:
Aramus Daimorgul wrote:2. With the NE reoccurring roles setting rule, is a "critical failure" result simply count as unconscious for 1d6 days? A "failure" result forces a spirit check or unconscious for 1d6 days and then next round a vigor check or unconscious for 1d6 days otherwise unconscious until all wounds are healed. A "success" they are unconscious for an hour or earlier with a successful healing skill roll. Do I have all of that right? Any suggestions on how to aplly the rules update to this setting rule better?


Basically, if the character would die based on the Incapacitation result, then they are Incapacitated for 1d6 days instead. They don't necessarily have to remain unconscious, but they are Incapacitated.

Incapacitated means a character can only take free actions? Move but not run, speak but not attack etc. If they move do they receive the rough traveling penalty for healing, natural or otherwise?
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#50 Postby Clint » Mon Nov 23, 2009 3:13 pm

Aramus Daimorgul wrote:So you would roll which leg only after you gain the "one-leg" hindrance but not when you gain the "lame" hindrance.


It doesn't really matter which leg it is since there is no differentiation between legs like arms (i.e. the offhand penalty). So just choose or define it by whatever fits the situation.

Aramus Daimorgul wrote:And this holds true on arms and eyes too?


It matters with arms as noted above, so there is a roll. Eyes work kind of like legs, hit one and it's the one eye hindrance; have that already and the other gets hit to cause blindness.

Aramus Daimorgul wrote:Incapacitated means a character can only take free actions? Move but not run, speak but not attack etc. If they move do they receive the rough traveling penalty for healing, natural or otherwise?


As per page 76 of SWEX, "Incapacitated characters are too beaten, battered, or bruised, to do anything useful. They may not perform actions and are not dealt action cards in combat."

After combat, a GM might roll to see if they are walking wounded version of Incapacitated (page 78) in which case they might be capable shambling slowly. If they fail the roll though, they don't really have to worry about dying from being moved since they can't die anyway; they just can't act themselves.
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#51 Postby Aramus Daimorgul » Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:08 pm

Clint wrote:
Aramus Daimorgul wrote:Incapacitated means a character can only take free actions? Move but not run, speak but not attack etc. If they move do they receive the rough traveling penalty for healing, natural or otherwise?


As per page 76 of SWEX, "Incapacitated characters are too beaten, battered, or bruised, to do anything useful. They may not perform actions and are not dealt action cards in combat."

After combat, a GM might roll to see if they are walking wounded version of Incapacitated (page 78) in which case they might be capable shambling slowly. If they fail the roll though, they don't really have to worry about dying from being moved since they can't die anyway; they just can't act themselves.

So, what can an incapacitated character do? Can they literally just lay there because free actions are still actions?

In the past, you have said that the Walking Wounded rules were specifically for Extras and that Wild Cards can move normally. Moving is a free action, so I would assume other free actions are also possible. What else is possible while you are incapacitated? If the Walking Wounded rules can be applied to this situation, they would never get a card to act on, so how does that work? Additionally if they aggravate there injuries while Walking Wounded does the -2 count as the rough traveling penalty?

I apologize for this seeming like some kind of a rules trap, I am looking to clarify the area for myself and others. Thanks!

Edit: On page 102, it states incapacitated characters can only whisper, so the difference between unconscious and incapacitated is very minor.
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#52 Postby Clint » Mon Nov 23, 2009 4:44 pm

Aramus Daimorgul wrote:So, what can an incapacitated character do? Can they literally just lay there because free actions are still actions?

In the past, you have said that the Walking Wounded rules were specifically for Extras and that Wild Cards can move normally. Moving is a free action, so I would assume other free actions are also possible. What else is possible while you are incapacitated? If the Walking Wounded rules can be applied to this situation, they would never get a card to act on, so how does that work? Additionally if they aggravate there injuries while Walking Wounded does the -2 count as the rough traveling penalty?

I apologize for this seeming like some kind of a rules trap, I am looking to clarify the area for myself and others. Thanks!

Edit: On page 102, it states incapacitated characters can only whisper, so the difference between unconscious and incapacitated is very minor.


Not just only whisper, but whisper incoherently, but then again that is the listing for Incapacitation due to Fatigue.

No, the Walking Wounded rules do not apply to Wild Cards, I just said the GM might use them for NE if he wanted; basically in lieu of the character being unconscious for an hour or so. It is a comic book world after all. But that isn't an "official" ruling by any means, just an option.

For a simple rule for NE, then I'd say free actions only and no powers that require any action to use even if it would be a free action.
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