New Incapacitation Table

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Noshrok Grimskull
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#21 Postby Noshrok Grimskull » Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:16 pm

I like it.
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#22 Postby kreider204 » Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:08 pm

So, will there be a third printing of SW:EX incorporating these errata, or will they be saved for a whole new edition?

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#23 Postby tylermo » Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:05 pm

I thought I heard rumor that there would only be two printings of the $10.00 SWEX, before possibly going to a $20.00? price point when the current printing runs out. Not sure I'm remembering that correctly. Whatever changes are made to the "new"? edition, I hope it will continue to work with the older settings, and what not. Haven't had a chance to peruse the new inc table, so I can't comment on old versus new.

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#24 Postby Lysander » Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:54 pm

This may not be very FFF, but I would consider keeping 2 tables. One for regular combat type incapacitation which is slightly softer, and one for "You really want to try to jump across the 30' gorge on one good leg?" table, which would be a much harsher mistress that you'd pull out.

It could also be a subtle hint at how serious the repercussions would be for failure.

(Now that I think about it, you could just add a negative modifier to the rolls based on lethality of the source of damage instead of having 2 tables, but I play with a couple of knuckleheads that could use a visual hint from the GM if they're about to do something stupid "Frank, you may want to reconsider, he's got the RED table out...")
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#25 Postby fanchergw » Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:32 pm

Lysander wrote:This may not be very FFF, but I would consider keeping 2 tables. One for regular combat type incapacitation which is slightly softer, and one for "You really want to try to jump across the 30' gorge on one good leg?" table, which would be a much harsher mistress that you'd pull out.

It could also be a subtle hint at how serious the repercussions would be for failure.

(Now that I think about it, you could just add a negative modifier to the rolls based on lethality of the source of damage instead of having 2 tables, but I play with a couple of knuckleheads that could use a visual hint from the GM if they're about to do something stupid "Frank, you may want to reconsider, he's got the RED table out...")

It might be simpler to just tell the player that they are welcome to try it, but that they cannot spend any bennies on either the action or the Incapacitation roll if they fail. Thus, they get exactly one chance (possibly with penalties) and that's it. Then, to really scare them, tempt them to try it with an offer of a free bennie if they succeed. :twisted: If that doesn't make the players sit up and take notice, then they deserve what they get.

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#26 Postby Clint » Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:52 am

kreider204 wrote:So, will there be a third printing of SW:EX incorporating these errata, or will they be saved for a whole new edition?


Not sure if I completely understand, but we always try to get any errata into the next printing of the rules. We just went ahead and put this up because it had been finalized and we'd rather have it out there than wait on another printing.
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#27 Postby thwill » Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:00 am

I've only played (GMd) eight sessions so far (all SW:Ex) so I'm not sure what my opinion is worth but I've never let ignorance stop me from offering my 2 cents ;-)

My group haven't noticed any problems with the existing Incapacitation table, and we've already had a couple of characters bleed to death. The chances of rolling snake eyes on the initial roll may be slim, but failing a Vigor roll at -3 on subsequent rounds is fairly likely. In addition even if they survive, any injuries they have received are permanent, which is pretty harsh.

I can see now that a combination of "Hard to Kill", "Nerves of Steel" and/or a high Vigor might make a character virtually immortal ... but perhaps the best fix to that is to disallow "Hard to Kill"? By the way, was it intended that "Hard to Kill" effect only the initial roll on the Incapacitation table or Bleeding Out rolls as well?

I have two major problems with the new system:

1) There is now no bleeding out stage (or to be more precise it is just the very short period before making the Spirit roll, and the beginning of the following round). This seems to diminish that dramatic cry of "Medic!" and also means that wounded characters either survive, or die within 6 seconds of receiving their wounds ... which seems less realistic than the previous rules.

2) Making such a major change in an "Errata" document just sticks in my craw and reminds me of WEG's inability to create a workable rule for dodging in 3 (or is it 4) versions of Star Wars (hurrah for SW:Ex not having an active dodge!)

And finally, if under the new system you were going to document "Cinematic Incapacitation" and "Harsh Incapacitation" then wouldn't it be simplest to describe them as a +/-4 to the Vigor roll?

Thanks for listening,

Tom

P.S. I hope people don't find me overly critical. I think Savage Worlds is a wonderful game and wish that when I first saw it many years ago at a wargaming convention I hadn't ignored it as a "set of miniature skirmish rules that are trying to evolve into an RPG".

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#28 Postby Lord Inar » Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:13 pm

I must admit, I miss "bleeding out" as well. The odds of dying are quite high as well, which I realize is the intent.

If a character with a d6 Vigor and d6 Spirit is incapacitated, their chance of dying on the first round is 70% (Fail Vigor and fail Spirit)

If they make it to the second round, the chances of dying on the second round are 84% so their overall chance of dying is an 81% for our hapless d6 joe.

Even the grizzled veteran with a d12 in both Vigor and Spirit will still die 20% of the time on that first round.

The odds are better at 45% of dying for the d12/d12 hero resulting in an overall 31% chance of dying after any lethal incapacitation check.

Of course the "Hard to Kill" edges change that, and I can see that some may prefer it that way, but you have to survive to get there. With an average of at least one incapacitation per adventure (pretty much our record), the body count will go up rather quickly, especially at the beginning.

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#29 Postby Enpeze » Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:18 pm

Lord Inar wrote:I must admit, I miss "bleeding out" as well. The odds of dying are quite high as well, which I realize is the intent.

If a character with a d6 Vigor and d6 Spirit is incapacitated, their chance of dying on the first round is 70% (Fail Vigor and fail Spirit)

If they make it to the second round, the chances of dying on the second round are 84% so their overall chance of dying is an 81% for our hapless d6 joe.

Even the grizzled veteran with a d12 in both Vigor and Spirit will still die 20% of the time on that first round.

The odds are better at 45% of dying for the d12/d12 hero resulting in an overall 31% chance of dying after any lethal incapacitation check.
.


Could you elaborate how you come to these numbers? (especially in the second round) Thanks.

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#30 Postby jerepp » Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:08 pm

I too would miss the bleeding out that gives you time to bleed out. So on a failure if they make that spirit roll. On the following turn(s) I'd have them make a vigor roll, on success effects are as in the Errata, on failure rather than immediately dying I'd give the character an extra level of fatigue until they run out at which point character slips into death. Critical failure means immediate death. Still pretty quick bleed out but does give a bit of time for intervention. And don't forget Fatigue and Wound penalties stack.
Last edited by jerepp on Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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#31 Postby ron blessing » Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:08 pm

Lord Inar wrote:I must admit, I miss "bleeding out" as well. The odds of dying are quite high as well, which I realize is the intent.

If a character with a d6 Vigor and d6 Spirit is incapacitated, their chance of dying on the first round is 70% (Fail Vigor and fail Spirit)

If they make it to the second round, the chances of dying on the second round are 84% so their overall chance of dying is an 81% for our hapless d6 joe.

Even the grizzled veteran with a d12 in both Vigor and Spirit will still die 20% of the time on that first round.

The odds are better at 45% of dying for the d12/d12 hero resulting in an overall 31% chance of dying after any lethal incapacitation check.

Of course the "Hard to Kill" edges change that, and I can see that some may prefer it that way, but you have to survive to get there. With an average of at least one incapacitation per adventure (pretty much our record), the body count will go up rather quickly, especially at the beginning.


There's a bit of a math issue with these probabilities:

With a Spirit d6 and a Vigor d6 (don't forget the d6 Wild Die, as well), each roll has a 69.4% chance of failure. With two chances, you end up with about a 48.2% chance of failure, or a 51.8% chance of success. Remember, any of the four total dice rolled here can be a 6 (which explodes and must result in at least the required 7 to succeed with a -3 wound modifier).

If you fail the both initial rolls, you then have a 30.6% chance to live on the second round.

This is good for two reasons:

1) A d6 Trait is considered average, and it doesn't get much better than a 50/50 (roughly) chance with an "average" trait. So the math seems dead on there.

2) Remember, you failed the Vigor roll in the first round if you made it to the second. Your body is failing. There's only so much your will to live can do for you if your body is failing. The follow-up Vigor roll gives you a second chance to kick start your body, but it should be slim.

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#32 Postby jerepp » Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:15 pm

jerepp wrote:I too would miss the bleeding out that gives you time to bleed out. So on a failure if they make that spirit roll. On the following turn(s) I'd have them make a vigor roll, on success effects are as in the Errata, on failure rather than immediately dying I'd give the character an extra level of fatigue until they run out at which point character slips into death. Critical failure means immediate death. Still pretty quick bleed out but does give a bit of time for intervention. And don't forget Fatigue and Wound penalties stack.


Actually on second thought I'm thinking maybe a success rather than halt the bleeding just delays the next roll for an hour or so, and a raise halts the process. That would give time for evacuation of critically wounded characters or offsite medics a chance to get there to help. but would mean more tracking... just a thought

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#33 Postby Clint » Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:17 pm

jerepp wrote:Actually on second thought I'm thinking maybe a success rather than halt the bleeding just delays the next roll for an hour or so, and a raise halts the process. That would give time for evacuation of critically wounded characters or offsite medics a chance to get there to help. but would mean more tracking... just a thought


Very close! That is near how Bleeding Out will probably work for some settings that have limited or no arcane options to heal.

Stabilization will occur on a raise, and a success will mean rolling at the beginning of the next round.
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#34 Postby Lord Inar » Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:55 pm

[quote="Ron Blessing"]There's a bit of a math issue with these probabilities:

With a Spirit d6 and a Vigor d6 (don't forget the d6 Wild Die, as well), each roll has a 69.4% chance of failure. With two chances, you end up with about a 48.2% chance of failure, or a 51.8% chance of success. Remember, any of the four total dice rolled here can be a 6 (which explodes and must result in at least the required 7 to succeed with a -3 wound modifier).

Man I hate it when I have a "one-cell off" error in my Excel spreadsheet.
Those are the right odds! I stand corrected.

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#35 Postby FoxBlue » Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:56 pm

You can still bleed out by botching your natural healing roll, and if your are still incapacitated (but stable) after an hour thats pretty much all you've got. However, I'd still like to see a variation of dying from wounds that isn't immediate or a 1 in 36(or more) chance every 5 days.

Fiction is full of mortally wounded people staying around for a few minutes/hour/days, I want some in my games. :P

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#36 Postby Lord Inar » Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:05 pm

FoxBlue wrote:Fiction is full of mortally wounded people staying around for a few minutes/hour/days, I want some in my games. :P


I'm still with you on that. I just botched my Statistics skill check above.

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#37 Postby jerepp » Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:47 pm

Exactly... not that it will be that common... first the character is going to have to fail the first roll, I assume they'll blow all their remaining bennies on that given there is little point in saving them for the harder rolls later that leave you in worse shape. So we are looking at a character that has blown their bennies and then makes a spirit roll and then fails a vigor roll to keep bleeding and then at some point before fatigue gives out makes a vigor roll at even a higher penalty.

But should such a bizzare run of good and bad luck occur there is a excellent reason for a nice little side quest to look for expert medical help before the character slips away. It needs to be quick enough that it is urgent but slow enough to have a chance... hours to a couple of days seems about right. Delaying death for a round or two only helps if there is a combat medic right there. Story wise I think we need enough time to the casualty to a facility or for a serious surgeon to get there.

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#38 Postby Sherman » Sat Oct 24, 2009 1:26 am

I'm not a fan of the "dead or dead in 6 seconds" rule either.

I'd way rather see something that kicked in after ten minutes or an hour even if it was going to be another all or nothing roll. Give people a chance to have an ally patch them up, even if it wasn't during the fight.

The Lone Ranger never would have made it without Tanto finding him right?

It wasn't something I was worried about, but now I feel obligated to house rule it... Too much of a 1st ed D&D "Save or DIE!" feel to it.
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#39 Postby AFDia » Sat Oct 24, 2009 3:53 am

I don't see the problem.

The main difference between this and the old SWEX table is that now it's possible to die instantly.
With the old table you survived almost every time at least 6sec to be healed, but it was still a decision of a few seconds.

There has never been a table which said "roll every 10min to check if you're dying". There was just a table which said "you need at least 6sec to die and if anyone comes to patch your wounds fast enough, you will survive anything".

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#40 Postby Harlan Whitfield » Sat Oct 24, 2009 4:54 am

Any chance that these errata can be reflected in the SWEX GM screen inserts?


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