[HoE Classic] Lifetap

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[HoE Classic] Lifetap

#1 Postby oleingva » Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:46 am

One of my players are making a new character, having retired his old one. He is making a Doomsayer, and since I've never had one of those in my games before, I asked him to tell me a bit of what he had set up.

Pretty much, it sounded powerful, but reasonable, until he told me about his Hindrances: He had taken Lifetap (-2)

Now, I am a bit surprised that I haven't noticed this one before, but to me, it sounds more like an Edge than a Hindrance. If you don't have Children o' the Atom handy, it lets you split the cost of all miracles you use between your Strain and your wind - if there is an odd point, you get to choose if you take it from Strain or wind.

Now, if you had lousy wind, that would be a serious drawback, but most Doomies should have 18-20 or better. This guy has 34. Generally speaking, it halves the cost of his miracles, since wind is regained faster than Strain, he has more of it, and he can even spend chips to regain some. Losing the wind will never be a problem; spending half Strain will be a huge advantage.

Generally, this player isn't much of a munchkin, and I could tell that he was immensely proud to have figured out this one, so instead of going with my knee-jerk reaction of turning it into an Edge or disallowing it completely, I told him that he could keep it, but that I'd punish him for it later. I also made it clear that I'd give the Edge additional downsides, so that it really felt like a Hindrance, and not like a freebee-Edge.

Any thoughts on this?
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#2 Postby Zombi Bobb » Tue Feb 03, 2009 7:36 am

I think Doomsayers are way overpowered. Without even munchkining anything, they can overwhelm a game. The way I try to cut down on that is I play up the Sinnin' table for them hardcore. Attack, or through inaction allow an attack on, a mutant? That's a sin, a big one. Even if it's self defense. I'm debating if this rule extends all the way to Trogs. Another thing I do is I've doubled the cost for most miracles. I have issues with Doomsayers. Love the concept, irked by the execution.

But more specifically in regard to your problem. One thing I've done, especially in regards to HOE, is that there are many different ways to take Wind damage and there are many different types of Wind damage. Getting punched in the stomach is not the same kind of Wind damage as traipsing through a Ghost Storm. The punch heals much faster than the radiation. I have players track their types of Wind separately. So if you're in a fight in the freezing cold in the radiated remains of a city, that's three possible types of Wind damage. Rest recovers the fight Wind, warmth recovers the cold Wind and a clean shower and rest outside of a radiated area recover the radiation Wind. Now that doesn't actually come up all that often, but I have the system just in case. For you, I'd recommend that any Wind used for Lifetap takes the same amount of time and rest as recovering Strain. It doesn't recover simultaneously either; Wind heals first, then Strain is recovered.

That's what I'm going to do if I ever run into that scenario.

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#3 Postby L3ster » Tue Feb 03, 2009 6:21 pm

actually i don't remember where it was written but one of my friend said that it is advantage

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#4 Postby ScooterinAB » Wed Feb 04, 2009 12:54 am

I quite like Zombi's take on it. I once played with a guy who took Life Tap just to show how overpowered in was. I don't know about the wind recovering at the same rate as Strain, but I do like the idea of it not just coming back.

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#5 Postby Wendigo1870 » Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:33 pm

Doomsayers are overpowered. So are Templars, Junkers, Sykers, or any other AB. Don't get me started on Cyborgs.
That said, the game just works that way; it's imbalanced down right from the start, when everyone pulls cards. So I quit complaining (too hard).

Now coïncidentally we started anew with our HoE-campaign, with a Doomsayer with Lifetap. I thought it was way overpowered too, and maybe it still is. But your Doomie is way more vulnerable to getting out of the action. If he starts flinging with his powers, he'll make a target out of himself. He's already spending some wind to keep those powers up. Then come the injuries, with added wind loss with it. Wait 'till he starts bleeding, and see him squirm with the choice to use more power and lose more wind with the risk of going down, or hide because he's already down to his last wind where a regular DS could reasonably keep going.
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#6 Postby oddtail » Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:47 am

Wendigo1870 wrote:Wait 'till he starts bleeding, and see him squirm with the choice to use more power and lose more wind with the risk of going down, or hide because he's already down to his last wind where a regular DS could reasonably keep going.

The only reason he has to make this difficult choice, though, is that he can use his powers twice as much as normal.

It's like saying "look at this Huckster and see him squirm when he can cast a Hex, but suffer Backlash". This doesn't mean that a Huckster is less powerful than a similar character who is NOT a Huckster ;).
Can't think of anything smart/funny right now, sorry.

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Re: [HoE Classic] Lifetap

#7 Postby Clint » Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:43 am

oleingva wrote:Losing the wind will never be a problem; spending half Strain will be a huge advantage.

Keep in mind, this is effectively damage the character takes (tapping into their very lifeforce) from using their powers and works exactly like that.

Since he must pay at least half Wind to use his miracles; that means every time he uses a miracle that would cost even 1 point of Wind... he must make a Stun check for Wind loss.

Yeah, the TN isn't high, but he has to do it every time, and if he starts taking wounds, the penalties accrue (not to mention the Wind starts declining).
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#8 Postby DannyboyO1 » Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:20 am

I thought this one'd come up once upon a time. At the least, making it an edge is sensible. After all, the biggest issue I have with it wasn't ever the fact that it could double your strain... it's that wind recovers fast. You can recover wind with a chip, a short break, someone else's first aid skill...

Two other thoughts on mitigating the lifetap disaster. One is to up the wind cost. The other... :twisted: is in the effects of "Ghost Juice". where there is a slight risk of death. If that's too far, drop the player's vigor or stamina a smidge. Sure, they can work a ton of mojo... and it might suck their soul out their rectum. Keeps 'em a bit reluctant to abuse the power.
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#9 Postby SniperJuice » Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:28 am

Kinda late on this one but, I ran across this post and can't help but reply.

Even if we assumed that you didn't make a TN 3 stun check every time this power was used for wind damage you still have to look at the fact that you should be rolling wind damage every time the Character takes a wound in essence he's limiting his overall ability to stay in the fight for the ability to take the person out faster. and since his wind has essentially two drains at this point one from combat and another for casting, the only thing I have my doomie I find that the one in my campaign drops himself to winded either before the "Boss" Drops or before depending on how stupid and miracle heavy he was feeling.
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#10 Postby Edivdrone » Sat Mar 21, 2009 2:54 pm

Since no one else has pointed this out yet, I'll jump in and point out that most PC's tend to drop from wind loss long before they are overwhelmed by their wounds. Remember, every wound LEVEL received causes 1d6 wind. This is an open ended roll, like most, so wind tends to disappear FAST in combat. This is the main point of the Edge Tough as Nails, after all.

A character with this Hindrance is likely going to find him(her)self dropping early in any fight, not just a boss fight, and spending lots of time as a target. And if they get in a fist fight, they could go down after getting off only one power. If you are using wind damage correctly, this is indeed a Hindrance.
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#11 Postby Ray » Fri May 29, 2009 9:46 pm

God Made Men, Sam Colt Made Them Equal.

ABs Made Better Men, Fully-Automatic Weapons Made Men Equal Again.

'Nuff Said.
"Grab a wackin' stick, boy! Time to learn these here undead some manners!" - Percy Spencer, to his Son, Kevin.

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