Savage d6 (1d6 only Savage Worlds Conversion)

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Theophage
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Savage d6 (1d6 only Savage Worlds Conversion)

#1 Postby Theophage » Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:48 pm

Okay, so inspired by a comment in this thread: http://www.peginc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21512

I decided to do a total conversion of SW to using only 1d6. Comments, criticisms, and copyright reminders welcome.


Savage d6 (Sd6)
===============

This document converts Pinnacle Entertainment Group's really amazing game system Savage Worlds (SW) to use only standard six sided dice (d6). Only one d6 is absolutely needed, but you'll probably want to use two (preferably different colors) for Wild Card trait rolls and damage. And for even more convenience, a set like this for each player as well as the game master.

Die Types
---------

Savage Worlds uses five different die types to rate a character's traits. These are converted to a single d6 as follows: d4 = d6-1, d6 = d6, d8 = d6+1, d10 = d6+2, d12 = d6+3. Note that the average result of each type is the same, while the upper and lower ends of these ranges are not.

The level of ability in each trait is now referred to and recorded as just the modifier (-1 to +3) rather then by the die type in SW.

In addition, trait levels above d12 are represented in Savage Worlds as flat bonuses (d12+1, d12+2, etc). For Savage d6, simply add that bonus onto the d12 equivalent (d6+3) like so: d12+1 = d6+4, etc.

Wild Die
--------

The wild die for Wild Cards like the player characters is still a d6. A trait roll for a Wild Card is made with 2d6, adding the modifier onto the highest result.

Target Numbers
--------------

Target numbers remain the same as in Savage worlds.

This means that a trait of d6+3 will succeed vs the standard target number of 4 100% of the time. While this may seem excessive, consider that: 1) not all target numbers are of the standard difficulty of 4, and 2) any other negative modifiers (-1 for dim lighting, fatigue, etc.) will still reduce that to less than 100%. These reasons are also why it is still advantageous to raise a trait above d6+3 when possible.

Parry and Toughness
-------------------

Since the different die types are no longer being used, Parry and Toughness are calculated as follows: Parry = 5 + Fighting skill modifier, Toughness = 5 + Vigor modifier.

Similarly, anywhere the rules refer to some number being based on die type (such as some settings where you can learn a number of languages equal to half your smarts die type, etc.) you can either substitute 3 + trait modifier for half of the die type, or double that for the full die type.

Damage
------

Damage is calculated the same way as in Savage Worlds, simply converting each die type to a d6 with modifier. For example, a dagger which in Savage Worlds does Strength + d4 damage, does Strength + d6 - 1 damage in Savage d6. A character with a Strength modifier of +0 (d6) would do d6 + 0 + d6 - 1 or 2d6-1 damage with that dagger.
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#2 Postby SlasherEpoch » Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:45 pm

I think this screws with the odds an awful lot.

Wasn't the original to roll 1-5d6 with 4 still being the target number?

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#3 Postby Theophage » Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:59 pm

Using 1 to 5d6 is what was mentioned in the thread, but I also suggested just using a single d6. After thinking about it further, I came up with the above.

Does it mess with the probabilities too much? How much is too much?

The averages are all the same: average for d4 = 2.5, average for d6-1 = 2.5, etc. only the top and bottom of the ranges are different. I don't find the probabilities to be different enough to change any of the target numbers, the edges, or any of the other situational modifiers.
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#4 Postby Gavinwulf » Thu Jan 01, 2009 2:08 am

This seems like it would grant a significantly higher number of raises; rolled more consistently, once your trait was above a D6.

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#5 Postby The Angle » Thu Jan 01, 2009 2:35 pm

Actually, this appears to lower the odds of rolling successive raises more often than it raises them.

Code: Select all

        d8  / d6+1      d10 / d6+2      d12 / d6+3
 4     0.63 / 0.67     0.70 / 0.83     0.75 / 1.00
 8     0.13 / 0.17     0.30 / 0.17     0.42 / 0.33
12     0.08 / 0.06     0.09 / 0.08     0.08 / 0.11
16     0.02 / 0.02     0.05 / 0.02     0.06 / 0.03

This question begs the second question of, does it matter whether it changes the odds? It's not as if the percentages in SvgW reflect an objective reality. They're just probabilities applied to a game situation, on a largely arbitrary basis. Any set of numbers is valid, provided the players accept them as such.

Does this mean what it states?

A trait roll for a Wild Card is made with 2d6, adding the modifier onto the highest result.

I'd recommend still keeping an absolute distinction between the wild die and the trait die, for two reasons. First, always adding the bonus to the higher die will skew the results significantly in the WC's (which usually means PCs') favor. Second, it removes the game's ability to apply penalties when a 1 is rolled on the trait die.

I've found that when differentiating two d6s from one another, using a small die and a large die often makes for quicker recognition than, say, a blue die and a red die. If dice of equal sizes are used, then the wild die should always be white (for example) for everyone. That way, no one can pull the old "no, this time the blue die was wild and the red die was my trait." It's easy to justify on the grounds that it makes things easier for the GM -- because it does.

Steve
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#6 Postby The Angle » Thu Jan 01, 2009 2:44 pm

One area where this will introduce a slowdown is muscle-powered weapon damage. In the past, when Ragnar swung his battle ax, he did d8+d10 damage. Now he does d6+1 + d6+2. Prepared, attentive players will write this on their character sheets and carry it in their heads as 2d6+3 -- no problem. Everyone else will remember it as 2d6 plus some other numbers -- let me look those up ... just a moment ...

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#7 Postby Theophage » Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:39 pm

Re: the wild die

Originally I didn't think it would matter if the bonus were added to whichever die was higher, but now that you mention it, it does make a difference. Thank you for pointing that out, The Angle. I would certainly want the wild die separate.

As for weapon damage, yes, it is a little more involved, but I don't think by much. All muscle powered weapons are going to be 2d6 + your strength modifier, plus the weapon modifier (In fact, putting it that way makes it sound even simpler). I would imagine that a weapon's damage would be written on the character sheet before play anyway.

This conversion is just something to use if you're interested. Naturally, there's going to be some differences, and those differences may or may not be desireable. I tried to be as consistent as possible with this conversion.
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#8 Postby Gavinwulf » Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:11 pm

Hmmm... I might try this out some time.

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#9 Postby scourger » Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:02 pm

Yeah, looks interesting.

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#10 Postby urbaman » Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:57 am

Hi,

Starting from here, I would like to hear how it worked out for you, as I'm interested in a "simpler die rolling" version of SW.

I'm also thinking about a second variant to the "1d6", I'll call it the "1d10" variant, for a more granular spread of results.

- All trait rolls are rolled as 1d10 + trait rank against 9 (default TN)
- Toughness is 7 + (2xvigor rank)
- Parry is 7 + (2xFighting rank)
- Any other measures related to die type equals 5 + (2xtrait rank) for half die type, 5 + (4xtrait rank) for full die type
These values are all written on the c.sheet to be easily checked.
Example: a d4 in SW has Toughness 4 (default TN), a 1 in d10SW will have a Toughness of 9 (default TN)

- Damage is rolled normally, adding 5 to the total for non-Str-based damage (the TN shift for Str-based damage is already factored in as I roll a d10 for Str).

- The Wild die is still a D6, enabling you to get that better result (and will be less invasive). I'm thinking to raise it to a base d10, with edges and other circumstances in play giving it a +2 each die type raise.

- In SW I have a 25% of getting the default TN with a rank 1 (d4) trait, in d10SW I will have a sligthly less chance (20%) to hit the default TN. A little less cinematic (if you don't ace...) but more granular and more casual in a way.

What do you think?

Thanks,

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#11 Postby amerigoV » Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:59 pm

Just a general statement - the conversion adds another layer of bonus/penalties to the game. My personal opinion is that the system is already stretching with the current bonuses.

For example, lets take someone that draws a Joker, Wild Attacks, has +1 GangUp, and has Fighting d10 fighting with a LongSword/Str d10. This is not an uncommon situation in a fantasy setting - if you get the Joker, its a great time to go "all out"

Currently,

Attack= max(d10,d6) +2 Joker + 2 Wild Attack +1 GU
Damage= d8+d10+2 (Wild Attack)+2(Joker) and potenial +1d6 for a Raise

The all d6 method:
Attack= max(d6+2,d6) +2 Joker + 2 Wild Attack +1 GU
Damage= d6+1 +d6+2 +2 (Wild Attack)+2(Joker) and potenial +1d6 for a Raise


So what is my point? When you string together and number of +'s and -'s it slows the game. At the table I do not see the player or GM staring at the dice for 15 seconds figuring out the result - the time is spent adding and subtracting bonuses (or lots of Aces :)). This change results in significantly more +'s and -'s as any trait die that is not just a d6 has an adjustment. And the adjustment is ONLY to the trait die, not the Wild die. In combat you increase the impact by adjusting the damage dice as well*

* here you might look to Dragon Age - perhaps you have some weapons that are 1d6 damage and others that are 2d6

Oh, and what is an Ace in this case? that could get really ugly. Your "d10" Acing a number of times creates an ugly number of modifiers. People have a hard enough time adding up Aces after a long day at work, this would be even more ugly.

Then you have the the biggest problem - sometimes its important to know which is the Skill Die and which is the Wild Die. Its hard enough to get players to declare this now - it will be impossible when they just scoop up any pair of d6s and roll. Cheating players!

I am not sure what your goal is, but simplifying to a d6 actually adds complexity and negates the Fast in FFF, IMO. It does, however, save on the cost of dice, which is important in these economic times.
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#12 Postby jpneok » Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:07 pm

I had been thinking about something similar a few months ago but never looked into it, though I was thinking of going with all d6s replacing the other dice in some other way. I like this on the face of it, for being a creative variation, regardless of what comes of it, I feel like its never a bad thing to just try some different things and see what comes out.

For me, the d4 = d6-1 and other equivalents is sort of "ehhhh", but I don't have a better idea offhand, unless it would somehow be to have d4 = 1 die, d6 = 2 die, but that's sort of some other game's mechanic I think. Not sure.

But keep up the good work.

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#13 Postby urbaman » Wed Jul 10, 2013 4:07 pm

Currently,

Attack= max(d10,d6) +2 Joker + 2 Wild Attack +1 GU
Damage= d8+d10+2 (Wild Attack)+2(Joker) and potenial +1d6 for a Raise

The all d6 method:
Attack= max(d6+2,d6) +2 Joker + 2 Wild Attack +1 GU
Damage= d6+1 +d6+2 +2 (Wild Attack)+2(Joker) and potenial +1d6 for a Raise


In my D10 version:
1) Damage remains the same (just add 5 to non-str damage, but that is already factored in the weapon/power stats).
2) It's only one more + or - on Trait rolls, it's d10 against d6 for Wild Die confusion, and it trades some milliseconds in speed against a more linear curve (statistically and in trait growth and trait comparison).

I'm only giving my points for this houserule, and your insight is very helpfull even if you're going the conservative way.

Anyone seeing if my adjusted TNs and Secondary Traits/Damage calculations are broken?

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#14 Postby Lawngnome4hire » Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:08 am

This seems counter productive to me. One of the big appeals of Savage Worlds is that it uses scaling dice instead of an obscene amount of modifiers like most other systems. This makes rolls easier and faster since there is less math needed to modify rolls.

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#15 Postby sniffycrab » Thu Jul 11, 2013 10:27 pm

I don't like it. All Math aside the dice steps let you feel how powerful something is. Using a d6 with bonuses does not achieve this effect. It does not feel like Savage Worlds but a different system all together.

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#16 Postby amerigoV » Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:35 am

urbaman wrote:
Anyone seeing if my adjusted TNs and Secondary Traits/Damage calculations are broken?


To be blunt, you cannot know unless you playtest a ton of scenarios. SW is very malleable withing the framework of the system. By using only a d6 or d10 with mods is changing the framework itself. Changing the framework means you will have to test it against everything in the system -- low scores vs. high TNs, high scores vs low TNs, Resisted Rolls, every Edge and Power (will Sweep become better under the d6 version since you are generally raising the lower bound?, etc.

I'll use an analogy of making changes to a house. When someone posts up a conversion/edge/hindrance/power, that is akin just rearranging the furniture or adding a coat of paint. The ideas in this thread are akin to removing/moving a load bearing wall and asking "is that alright?" I really do not know - have you tested it vs. a big wind storm or earthquake?
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#17 Postby kronovan » Fri Jul 12, 2013 2:08 pm

I agree with much of what has already been said - mainly it adds too much math via modifiers and it detracts from character growth by removing the d4 - d12 progression. For me the biggest downer with this system though, is that it removes what I consider the coolest element of Savage Worlds - that you eventually get to use all those cool and different sized dice. That the system is well designed and balanced to allow for the use of all those dice is the icing on the cake. ;)

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#18 Postby Zadmar » Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:59 am

I considered something similar at one point, mainly as a thought experiment to see if it would be feasible. Like urbaman I'd go with d10 for the granularity, and because I'd rather stick with bonuses instead of penalties for psychological reasons. The way I'd handle it would be as follows:

* Traits are in the range +1 to +5 (unskilled would probably be -1).

* You roll a d10 and add the appropriate trait, then compare it against TN 8.

* Every 5 (rather than 4) over the TN is a raise.

* Wild Cards still roll a Wild Die, but that's a d10 as well.

* If a die explodes, you subtract 1 before rolling again.

* Parry is increased by +4.

* Damage and Toughness are beyond the scope of this thought experiment.

So for a Wild Card, this:

d4) Success: 62.5% chance, Raise: 19.3% chance.
d6) Success: 75.0% chance, Raise: 25.9% chance.
d8) Success: 81.2% chance, Raise: 24.6% chance.
d10) Success: 85.0% chance, Raise: 39.8% chance.
d12) Success: 87.5% chance, Raise: 49.7% chance.

Would become this:

+1) Success: 64.0% chance, Raise: 15.4% chance.
+2) Success: 75.0% chance, Raise: 17.2% chance.
+3) Success: 84.0% chance, Raise: 19.0% chance.
+4) Success: 91.0% chance, Raise: 36.0% chance.
+5) Success: 96.0% chance, Raise: 51.0% chance.

The probabilities aren't quite the same, but they're fairly close. For an Extra it falls down a bit on the d4, as this:

d4) Success: 25.0% chance, Raise: 6.2% chance.
d6) Success: 50.0% chance, Raise: 13.9% chance.
d8) Success: 62.4% chance, Raise: 12.5% chance.
d10) Success: 70.0% chance, Raise: 30.0% chance.
d12) Success: 75.0% chance, Raise: 41.7% chance.

Becomes this:

+1) Success: 40.0% chance, Raise: 8.0% chance.
+2) Success: 50.0% chance, Raise: 9.0% chance.
+3) Success: 60.0% chance, Raise: 10.0% chance.
+4) Success: 70.0% chance, Raise: 20.0% chance.
+5) Success: 80.0% chance, Raise: 30.0% chance.

However most of my Extras tend to have d6 or d8, so I don't think it would be too bad.

Disclaimer: The above statistics are based on number-crunching rather than maths, and may be a fraction of a percent off.


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