Why three Wounds, but only two Fatigue?

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SteelDraco
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Why three Wounds, but only two Fatigue?

#1 Postby SteelDraco » Tue Feb 10, 2015 1:32 pm

Does anyone have any insight or thoughts on why Savage Worlds has three levels of Wounds before you're incapacitated at the next one, but only two levels of Fatigue? It's always struck me as an odd lack of symmetry, and it makes effects that cause Fatigue more dangerous, but less debilitating in the long term, since you have fewer Fatigue you can take before you drop, but they're easier to heal.

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#2 Postby Jounichi » Tue Feb 10, 2015 1:49 pm

You hit the nail on the head. Fatigue and Exhaustion are more dangerous in the short term, but you can recover from them far more easily.
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#3 Postby Matchstickman » Tue Feb 10, 2015 2:28 pm

Settings where Fatigue can be a longer term thing add a third fatigue level (Interface Zero for one).
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#4 Postby Zadmar » Tue Feb 10, 2015 2:36 pm

SteelDraco wrote:Does anyone have any insight or thoughts on why Savage Worlds has three levels of Wounds before you're incapacitated at the next one, but only two levels of Fatigue? It's always struck me as an odd lack of symmetry, and it makes effects that cause Fatigue more dangerous, but less debilitating in the long term, since you have fewer Fatigue you can take before you drop, but they're easier to heal.

They're usually faster than natural healing (unless you have some sort of regeneration ability), but wounds can also be recovered within the Golden Hour with a Healing roll. Conversely, if you suffer a couple of levels of Fatigue from Bumps and Bruises, your only option is to wait 48 hours.

There's also the fact that Extras can be Fatigued or Exhausted, but a single wound will incapacitate them. So while Fatigue is often more effective than regular damage against a Wild Card, the opposite is true against an Extra.

Suzerain added an additional Fatigue level (Fatigued -> Exhausted -> Debilitated). I've occasionally toyed with the idea of using that rule for Wild Cards, and saying that Extras can be brought low with a single level of Fatigue.
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#5 Postby Clint » Tue Feb 10, 2015 2:42 pm

Something else to consider, Wild Cards have three wounds before Incapacitation but not Extras.

Fatigue however works the same for both, so changing it to match wounds for Wild Cards just makes it more disparate from Extras, and changing it to match wounds for both mean Extras never get tired, they are either fully functional or totally wasted. Which works for combat but not the out of combat effects of fatigue so much.
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#6 Postby Legate71 » Tue Feb 10, 2015 3:34 pm

Think of it this way; the human body is very resilient. All you have to do is read any story about soldiers wounded in battle. Some have taken incredibly grievous wounds and, yet, still manage to carry on. Now, if you remove someone's ability to breath...no matter who they are...they are down and out in less then 4 minutes. Now, I know this last point is a little extreme, but fatigue should be more insidious then taking physical wounds.

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#7 Postby mac40k » Tue Feb 10, 2015 4:24 pm

Not to mention that in every game I've ever played, combat comes up waaaay more frequently than Fatigue. Usually, if the party is doing a hard March or something and suffering Fatigue, they are smart enough to rest before even taking the second level of Fatigue and they aren't usually in situations where they have to tread water continuously for hours. In fact, I don't think I can recall a single incident of a PC having 2 Fatigue.

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#8 Postby Ilina_Young » Tue Feb 10, 2015 6:00 pm

the only time i remember being around the use of the fatigue rules, was a poorly scripted Ball/Party type deal with some rich businessman and we had to stop assassins while hammered. in fact, we were essentially, forced to roll vigor checks at -4 to see if we gained 1 fatigue or 2. less than 4 meant incapacitated and greater than 8 meant no fatigue, after a -4. so you needed like 8s and 12s on the die.

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#9 Postby ogbendog » Tue Feb 10, 2015 6:31 pm

I imagine Fatigue, or the thread of it, comes up more in No Powerpoint magic games, or desert/survival type games.

I seem to recall it can also come up in chases
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#10 Postby Legate71 » Tue Feb 10, 2015 7:13 pm

Really it should come up in any game where a PC is wearing heavy armour and doing anything more strenuous then walking. But, yes. It should definitely be used in extreme temperature conditions.

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#11 Postby ogbendog » Tue Feb 10, 2015 7:44 pm

Agree.
I like the idea of fatigue for encumbrance such as armor, instead of encumbrance penalties.
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#12 Postby Cryonic » Wed Feb 11, 2015 1:15 am

ogbendog wrote:Agree.
I like the idea of fatigue for encumbrance such as armor, instead of encumbrance penalties.

This really depends on time scales. Encumbrance penalties make sense as the baseline for any armor/weight as even fully rested the weight can still get in the way. Fatigue sets in over time and adds more penalties as you get tired operating under the load that is still getting in your way. So it isn't A or B, but both over time.

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#13 Postby thomas5251212 » Fri Mar 06, 2015 12:28 am

Fatigue is also the mechanic for a lot of poisons, something I've been very aware of in my XCOM campaign.

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#14 Postby chuck80 » Sun Mar 08, 2015 1:38 pm

Another thing to consider is the modifier: I can't imagine being tired enough for a -3 penalty...and still being conscious.

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#15 Postby raikenclw » Sun Mar 22, 2015 4:37 am

mac40k wrote:In fact, I don't think I can recall a single incident of a PC having 2 Fatigue.


In my PbP game, there is an ex-PC (a character that started out as a PC but whose player stopped posting) who currently has two levels of Bumps And Bruises Fatigue, as well as a couple of more PCs who have one level each of same.

But then again, it's not every day that the vehicle you're riding in gets picked up in the jaws of a Scoopjaw and treated like a rottweiler's chew toy.

[E.g. they've spent the last several seconds being bounced around the inside of the vehicle like BBs in a tin can . . .]
Last edited by raikenclw on Sun Mar 22, 2015 5:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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#16 Postby Zadmar » Sun Mar 22, 2015 5:10 am

There was a recent discussion on G+ about pepper spray and tasers, and I noticed that ETU handles them as Fatigue-based weapons, which brings this thread to mind.

ETU tasers cause automatic Fatigue, which means Wild Cards can neither Soak nor reroll to avoid it; three hits with a taser will automatically incapacitate any foe, no matter how high their Toughness or Vigor. It is perhaps the best weapon available for taking down powerful supernatural opponents.

Against Extras it's obviously far less effective, and (combined with "Shaken for 1d4 rounds") can add a lot more bookkeeping to combat - foes are no longer "Up, Down, or Off the Table", instead you potentially need to track Fatigue levels and Shaken duration for each Extra in combat.

This can lead to situations whereby the PCs use firearms against mooks, then pull out the pepper spray and tasers to deal with the big monsters.
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#17 Postby raikenclw » Sun Mar 22, 2015 5:57 am

Zadmar wrote:This can lead to situations whereby the PCs use firearms against mooks, then pull out the pepper spray and tasers to deal with the big monsters.


More and more when I think of this situation, I think of The Blacklist. Specifically, I think of Raymond Reddington (James Spader) walking calmly up to the target's safehouse, coolly shooting the two guys on guard outside with one silenced shot each, then coolly doing the same to each person encountered inside as he strolls through the building.

Mooks all.

But then when we get to the climatic confrontation, Tom Keen takes two bullets and yet still manages to hold a conversation (if a rather one-sided one) with Lizzy.

Wild Card.
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#18 Postby The One » Sun Mar 22, 2015 7:18 am

Zadmar wrote:There was a recent discussion on G+ about pepper spray and tasers, and I noticed that ETU handles them as Fatigue-based weapons, which brings this thread to mind.

ETU tasers cause automatic Fatigue, which means Wild Cards can neither Soak nor reroll to avoid it; three hits with a taser will automatically incapacitate any foe, no matter how high their Toughness or Vigor. It is perhaps the best weapon available for taking down powerful supernatural opponents.


I've probably been doing it wrong, but I've always allowed a soak roll against things like this
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#19 Postby Jounichi » Sun Mar 22, 2015 7:30 am

It's not a soak roll in the traditional sense, but so long as there's a trait roll to resist fatigue a benny can be spent to avoid it.
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#20 Postby Zadmar » Sun Mar 22, 2015 7:34 am

The One wrote:
Zadmar wrote:There was a recent discussion on G+ about pepper spray and tasers, and I noticed that ETU handles them as Fatigue-based weapons, which brings this thread to mind.

ETU tasers cause automatic Fatigue, which means Wild Cards can neither Soak nor reroll to avoid it; three hits with a taser will automatically incapacitate any foe, no matter how high their Toughness or Vigor. It is perhaps the best weapon available for taking down powerful supernatural opponents.


I've probably been doing it wrong, but I've always allowed a soak roll against things like this

Well the pepper spray allows you to make a Vigor roll to resist the Fatigue, which is conceptually similar to a Soak roll, but the taser inflicts the Fatigue automatically.
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