Some perspective? Where does Savage Worlds rank?

Post questions or comments directly to the Pinnacle crew here. Please be patient and try to keep conversations to a BARE minimum--the guys get a LOT of mail! Please also direct rules questions to the relevant forum--most folks there will already know what you're looking for. Thanks!

Moderators: PEG Jodi, The Moderators

Message
Author
User avatar
starwars1138
Heroic
Posts: 1544
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 8:25 am
Location: Atlanta area

Some perspective? Where does Savage Worlds rank?

#1 Postby starwars1138 » Tue Oct 23, 2012 3:27 pm

Hey all - long time no speak...!

I saw this http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/24224.html and it got me wondering how far back Savage Worlds might be. My gut says that its probably ranked a few back from 5th place but given the massive sales of a leaders, is our favorite Fast! Furious! Fun! system worth ranking?

Just curious - hope you all are well. I missed seeing everyone (you too Andy) at CotC this year - maybe next year.
Chris in Atlanta
----------------------
"Were I not wed, I would take you in a manly fashion."
"Because I'm pretty?"
"Because you're pretty."

User avatar
Clint
Site Admin
Posts: 19368
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:28 pm

Re: Some perspective? Where does Savage Worlds rank?

#2 Postby Clint » Tue Oct 23, 2012 3:51 pm

starwars1138 wrote:I saw this http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/24224.html and it got me wondering how far back Savage Worlds might be. My gut says that its probably ranked a few back from 5th place but given the massive sales of a leaders, is our favorite Fast! Furious! Fun! system worth ranking?


Ranking by what criteria? Sales numbers or copies of the core rules sold?

Just saying, if we sold 3x as many copies of our $10 core rulebook than someone else's $40 rules, we'd still be ranked behind them in sales.

Even then, ICv2's charts "are based on interviews with retailers, distributors, and manufacturers." They don't contact everyone when they do that, and that system isn't really a basis for 100% accuracy as we've seen in the past.

Since we don't really have an accurate basis to judge where those other games are as we aren't privy to ICv2's sources, it's not really possible to say where we are in comparison to them based off their chart.
Clint Black
Savage Worlds Core Rules Brand Manager

www.peginc.com

User avatar
starwars1138
Heroic
Posts: 1544
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 8:25 am
Location: Atlanta area

#3 Postby starwars1138 » Wed Oct 24, 2012 7:24 am

fair enough Clint - I guess that since I don't see the business side of the industry, I was just curious as to how PEG stacked up in terms of "success" (a subjective term I admit) as compared to the rest of the players.

I know that PEG is healthy at a time when lots of other companies have bitten the dust which says a lot. What about scale then? How many copies of the core rules (all variations) does SW sell compared to some of the big players. WoTC is obviously the king, and if they sell 25,000 copies a year, how far back are the players at the lower levels?

Not trying to be nosey - I always think of SW as major player but I know that I my perspective is off since I don't pay attention to other vendors much. Given that we have such close access to the "movers and shakers" in the SW development process, I consider the SW community to be very unique. I can't imagine being able to game with D&D creators on a regular basis - but I might be totally wrong on that only because my time is spent only in the SW community. I think of WoTC as being a huge lumbering corporation while I picture to be a small efficient family run business and as such, I wonder how big the divide is.

Anyway - just wondering aloud. I've always found the business side of the industry interesting.
Chris in Atlanta

----------------------

"Were I not wed, I would take you in a manly fashion."

"Because I'm pretty?"

"Because you're pretty."

Jux
Seasoned
Posts: 336
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2012 2:30 pm
Location: Estonia

#4 Postby Jux » Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:19 am

These products are popular (pathfinder and dnd) and have been "best sellers" for several years. It is hard to compete in sales with them, but currently I it seems to me, that Savage Worlds is second popular system compared to Pathfinder (d20). Specially with the new, beautiful deluxe rules book.

So I think the future is bright for SW. It is so at my gaming table :cool:

Dracones
Seasoned
Posts: 179
Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2011 2:08 pm
Location: Fort Pierce, Fl

#5 Postby Dracones » Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:42 am

Another issue here is that Savage Worlds doesn't really push out a bunch of core rule books and instead focuses on settings put out by a lot of publishers.

So for Pinnacle that means they don't see "sales" numbers from players who buy Triple Ace product lines. However it still helps them in that those other publishers keep players in the Savage Worlds system who will then be likely to buy something like Deadlands Noir.

SW is obviously less popular than D&D or Pathfinder, but it still has a respectable mind share and I think that'll only improve as publishers put out quality products for it.

Mike Zebrowski
Seasoned
Posts: 170
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 1:39 pm
Location: Roseville, MN

#6 Postby Mike Zebrowski » Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:27 pm

For a point of reference, look at Amazon's sales rankings

Dungeons & Dragons (Red box): 2,227
Pathfinder: 2,900
Call of Cthulhu: 23,689
Deathwatch: 34,983
Savage Worlds Deluxe Explorer Edition: 38,019
Savage Worlds: Explorer Edition: 128,472
Savage Worlds Deluxe: 211,069
Dark Heresy: 235,657

I would trust amazon's sales rankings over ICv2's any day of the week.

Cryonic
Heroic
Posts: 1004
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:00 am

#7 Postby Cryonic » Wed Oct 24, 2012 2:38 pm

Mike Zebrowski wrote:For a point of reference, look at Amazon's sales rankings

Dungeons & Dragons (Red box): 2,227
Pathfinder: 2,900
Call of Cthulhu: 23,689
Deathwatch: 34,983
Savage Worlds Deluxe Explorer Edition: 38,019
Savage Worlds: Explorer Edition: 128,472
Savage Worlds Deluxe: 211,069
Dark Heresy: 235,657

I would trust amazon's sales rankings over ICv2's any day of the week.


You missed a couple of big ones, namely Shadowrun at rank #21,493
and GURPS at rank #27,302

I can tell you that articles on my site do seem to match out the above ranking numbers. The pages on Shadowrun I have get about 3 - 4 times the hits that the Savage Worlds pages do.

User avatar
Clint
Site Admin
Posts: 19368
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:28 pm

#8 Postby Clint » Wed Oct 24, 2012 5:21 pm

Honestly, not really something I can definitively or even not-so-definitively answer.

I can say as it has been for some time, the top 2 are pretty much in a class all their own. Then you get into the next class range, we're pretty solidly in there with the rest. Still, it's hard to call when sales numbers tend to be the foundation of success, but we can sell copies of our core rulebook and not match the sales figures of a game that sells 1/3 or less that number of their own. Plus, most figures don't account for international versions of the rules or PDF sales (we do pretty good there).

I mean we're pretty much in a unique production paradigm that doesn't match up to the rest of the industry. We don't produce one-shot products, but our "line" is unique too.

Our core rules are very inexpensive, some first prints and at least reprints of the supplemental books are less expensive than comparable products, and settings are typically released complete as one or two books and even the exceptions aren't dozens of splatbooks.

That's just not a "normal" production scheme compared to most other RPG lines. I mean, 6 players and a GM can have all the material they need to run two complete pre-made campaigns of 50 Fathoms for less than what it would cost most GMs to get the basic rules for more popular games, much less a setting and campaign and books for the players.

Ultimately, I guess I'm saying we don't typically base our success on sales numbers, or we'd likely be handling sales in a different way.

We tend to base success on fans, and in that court, I think we're the most successful game on the market! :trippin:
Last edited by Clint on Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Clint Black

Savage Worlds Core Rules Brand Manager



www.peginc.com

Jux
Seasoned
Posts: 336
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2012 2:30 pm
Location: Estonia

#9 Postby Jux » Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:24 am

That's the only way forward!

sablemage
Veteran
Posts: 511
Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2008 4:36 pm
Location: Directly above the centre of the Earth

#10 Postby sablemage » Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:05 pm

Clint, for what it's worth, I say you're doin' it right. :-D

amerigoV
Heroic
Posts: 1167
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2009 7:15 pm
Location: Columbus, Ohio

#11 Postby amerigoV » Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:42 pm

I cannot speak to sales, but Savage Worlds is #1 to me. #2 is so far down the list I really could not name it.
Savage Buckeye!

User avatar
starwars1138
Heroic
Posts: 1544
Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 8:25 am
Location: Atlanta area

#12 Postby starwars1138 » Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:07 pm

Thanks Clint - that was I think what a I was going for... where does SW rank in terms of presence?

And like you said, the big two are in their own league but SW is strong in the second group. Which is about what I expected.

Thanks!
Chris in Atlanta

----------------------

"Were I not wed, I would take you in a manly fashion."

"Because I'm pretty?"

"Because you're pretty."

Sherman
Seasoned
Posts: 164
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:45 pm
Location: Fort Collins CO
Contact:

#13 Postby Sherman » Sun Nov 11, 2012 3:10 am

I sold about 75% in Explorer's Edition as to what I sold in 4th Ed Player's Handbooks, up until D&D died and Explorer's went away (happened at a similar time so it's a good retrospective). Sadly, more and more I have no clue what people want for role-playing since hardly anyone buys it anymore. Paizo has been pretty successful in screwing brick and mortar retailers and we really didn't need their help in getting pushed out of the RPG market...

The saddest part for me, is that I started my store mainly because of how much I love role-playing, but if I count dice, (RPG) minis and paints it's still less than 3% of my business.
Gryphon Games & Comics
2020 S College Ave, Suite B
Fort Collins CO 80525
www.gryphongamesandcomics.com

User avatar
The GIT!
Heroic
Posts: 1134
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:57 pm
Location: Aquilonia

#14 Postby The GIT! » Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:48 am

Sherman wrote:I sold about 75% in Explorer's Edition as to what I sold in 4th Ed Player's Handbooks, up until D&D died and Explorer's went away (happened at a similar time so it's a good retrospective). Sadly, more and more I have no clue what people want for role-playing since hardly anyone buys it anymore. Paizo has been pretty successful in screwing brick and mortar retailers and we really didn't need their help in getting pushed out of the RPG market...

The saddest part for me, is that I started my store mainly because of how much I love role-playing, but if I count dice, (RPG) minis and paints it's still less than 3% of my business.

This is very sad to hear but it does seem to be a sign of the times. I still try to purchase what I can from my FLGS but it just takes so long to get my orders in that I invariably order direct from the relevant company or Amazon.

Cryonic
Heroic
Posts: 1004
Joined: Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:00 am

#15 Postby Cryonic » Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:52 pm

Sherman wrote:I sold about 75% in Explorer's Edition as to what I sold in 4th Ed Player's Handbooks, up until D&D died and Explorer's went away (happened at a similar time so it's a good retrospective). Sadly, more and more I have no clue what people want for role-playing since hardly anyone buys it anymore. Paizo has been pretty successful in screwing brick and mortar retailers and we really didn't need their help in getting pushed out of the RPG market...

The saddest part for me, is that I started my store mainly because of how much I love role-playing, but if I count dice, (RPG) minis and paints it's still less than 3% of my business.


Well, amongst gamers, Role-players are a small niche. My FLGS does more business in boardgames and miniature war games (WH40K, WH Fantasy, etc...) than in all the RPGs that they carry. Easy to tell because their price stickers list the month/year that an item came in on. The RPG books seem to sit around longer than the boardgames or miniatures.

User avatar
Virgobrown72
Heroic
Posts: 1113
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:52 pm
Location: The other side of the Sun, baby!!!

#16 Postby Virgobrown72 » Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:08 pm

Savage Worlds is #1 in my heart... :oops:


:wink:
"That which does not kill me, makes me Shaken..."

kronovan
Heroic
Posts: 1038
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:22 am

#17 Postby kronovan » Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:33 am

Virgobrown72 wrote:Savage Worlds is #1 in my heart... :oops:


:-D ....really all that matters in the end anyways. ;)


I've followed the icv2 stats for a few years now and while I think they correctly survey the trends of the big hitters (Pathfinder, D&D) I challenge some of the other PnP's they consistently rank in the top 5. I'd be very surprised if DragonAge is truly a top 5 seller and currently besting Green Ronin's own Mutants & Masterminds. I say that having personally GM'd a number of DragonAGE games and are somewhat of a fan, but that system is practically dead mostly due to Green Ronin giving it so little love over the past 2 years. I'm also skeptical Fantasy Flight Games Warhammer RPG's rank so high.

I also follow the ranks on drivethrurpg and rpgnow, pay attention to what systems get discussed in the insanely active RPG.NET forums and talk to the owners of a majority of the LGS's in my city over the course of a year. Based on all that I'm fairly comfortable that Savage Worlds ranks in the top 20 if not the top 10.

User avatar
tigerguy786
Veteran
Posts: 736
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2011 12:37 pm

#18 Postby tigerguy786 » Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:26 pm

kronovan wrote: I'm also skeptical Fantasy Flight Games Warhammer RPG's rank so high.


I don't know, I know a lot of people that enjoy it and some people whose only experience with RPGs is that system
"Well, you do know what those who underestimate tigers always say right?"
"What?"
"They scream, 'Oh god help me I'm being mauled to death by a tiger.'"

kronovan
Heroic
Posts: 1038
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:22 am

#19 Postby kronovan » Sat Nov 17, 2012 3:00 pm

tigerguy786 wrote:
kronovan wrote: I'm also skeptical Fantasy Flight Games Warhammer RPG's rank so high.


I don't know, I know a lot of people that enjoy it and some people whose only experience with RPGs is that system


Oh I know WH40k RP is popular, but don't forget that when icv2 does their ranking they combine all 3 of the RP games together. If the same was done for Savage Worlds, it would be like combining SWD with Deadlands, 50 Fathoms and Necessary Evil for total sales. I've no doubt the WH40k games together are in the top 10, but if you separated them I'm not so sure.

dap6000
Heroic
Posts: 1412
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 6:31 pm
Location: Eagle River WI
Contact:

#20 Postby dap6000 » Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:59 pm

i'll play anything, but i only run savage worlds games.

as for "success" i personally have no worries about PEG or the larger savage worlds ecosystem disappearing in the foreseeable future. and that's good enough for me.


Return to “Hey Pinnacle!”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest