shotguns new way to handle

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wheatiess
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shotguns new way to handle

#1 Postby wheatiess » Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:10 am

so shot guns do 1-3d6 damage depending on how far away the target is. i love this and think it works very well but it still keeps getting into my head that it could be done diferently

what if damage was stuck at 1d6 and the 1-3 refers to the number of shots you could roll, each of which has to hit
so close is 3, medium is 2 and long is 1

hits on the same target could stack together or be seperate
could change rate up to 4-6 for certain shot cartriages

the logic behind this is falling apart as i think about it more (it is late though over here) but i will post it to see if anyone has had anything similar

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#2 Postby ogbendog » Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:21 pm

one problem I see with that, is that you might do less damage up close.

on the other hand, suppose you rolled a 8, 9, and a 3

3 is a miss
8 is a hit with a raise, so d6+d6
9 is a hit with a rasie, so d6+d6

so now you are doing 4d6, not 3

so as a trade off of maybe doing less, for the chance of doing more, it might be balanced.

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Maine
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Re: shotguns new way to handle

#3 Postby Maine » Thu Oct 11, 2012 4:14 pm

wheatiess wrote:i love this and think it works very well


It does, it's simple, fun, and makes shotguns deadly.

but it still keeps getting into my head that it could be done diferently


Why? If it works very well, why change it? If you are looking to change it 'just because', then you are approaching it from the wrong angle.

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Takeda
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#4 Postby Takeda » Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:57 pm

ogbendog wrote:one problem I see with that, is that you might do less damage up close.

on the other hand, suppose you rolled a 8, 9, and a 3

3 is a miss
8 is a hit with a raise, so d6+d6
9 is a hit with a rasie, so d6+d6

so now you are doing 4d6, not 3

so as a trade off of maybe doing less, for the chance of doing more, it might be balanced.


That's a fair point. At first I didn't get the significance of that change but that's really pretty brutal being that at short range you'd be rolling Shooting +2 ... so getting a TN 4 is easy as pie!

In my opinion a shotgun at full choke should be able to hit as many as 1 target per range-level. So only 1 at short range, 2 adjacent targets at medium range and 3 at long range. Of course the damage would be less but if you had actual rolls dependent on the range and not the damage that wouldn't work.

So if you did try to spread your center-shot to two targets I'd see it as -2 MAP but it still uses the same shot ... so you're not breaking the 1-shot per action of a RoF 1 weapon. Hmmm ....

So a 3-target shot at long range would have -8 to hit a TN of 4 ... Hmm, sounds like a house-rule as I can't imagine it coming up very often.
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#5 Postby Virgobrown72 » Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:09 pm

I use the cone template at a flat 3 d6. It works for my gaming group... :wink:
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#6 Postby Takeda » Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:36 pm

Virgobrown72 wrote:I use the cone template at a flat 3 d6. It works for my gaming group... :wink:


I'll try that out. Makes sense.
Dean: "Ya' know she could be faking."

Sam: "Yeah, what do you wanna do, poke her with a stick?"

[Dean nods]

Sam: "Dude, you're not gonna poke her with a stick?"

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#7 Postby Sadric » Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:45 am

I really liked the way GURPS handled shotguns.
There a shotgun does devasting 3d6 damage, very similiar to SW-shotgun damage.
But each dice get lowered by the armor value of the target.
So, even a leather jacket with armor rating of even 1 helps against a shotgun.

Wish I could port this rules to savage worlds. But at the same time I like the damage reduction at longer range. If I use both systems it shotguns are really useless at longer range. :-)

So I didnt bother and simply use the default system.

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#8 Postby supercOntra » Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:17 am

I use the cone template as well
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#9 Postby Jordan Peacock » Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:07 am

Sadric wrote:I really liked the way GURPS handled shotguns.


Just for the sake of brainstorming a way to handle this dynamic:

Negative Armor Piercing:
Any ammunition with a negative AP rating (e.g., "AP -2"), such as buckshot or hollow-point ammunition behaves normally against unarmored targets. However, if the target is wearing any sort of Armor, apply the negative AP modifier to the damage dealt.

So, if you hit a target with hollow-point ammunition that is listed as "AP -2," and the target is wearing some makeshift body armor that gives him Armor 1, you subtract 2 from the damage dealt. (Another way to achieve the same effect would be to look at the target as having Armor increased to 3 against this attack.)

For purposes of this rule, it's possible to have items that have an Armor rating of 0. For instance, you might have a thick winter coat or a leather motorcycle riding suit that has Armor 0. Normally, this would have no impact on damage, but for purposes of this rule, it's sufficient to reduce the damage dealt as noted above.

*OR*

Reduced Penetration
Attacks with this characteristic are meant to be used against unarmored targets. Double the target's Armor value (if any) vs. the damage of this attack. Hence, a target with Armor 2 is treated as if it had Armor 4 vs. a Reduced Penetration attack.

Certain items that don't normally grant any significant Armor value, such as a thick winter coat or leather motorcycle riding suit, are treated as having Armor 1 against attacks with Reduced Penetration.

(This latter method is what I used to handle "hollow-point" ammunition in my zombie-apocalypse campaign.)
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#10 Postby Takeda » Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:44 am

I like the Negative AP treatment. It would see it appropriate for any low-mass high-speed round be that: hollow-point (as its meant to penetrate as little as possible by maximum transfer of momentum to the target by maximizing the initial shock wave at the point of impact to maximize tissue trauma ), buckshot, bb pellets, slingshots, etc.

Of course the flechette round is low-mass high-velocity and this complicates things. In many systems the armour is applied first but what penetrates does more damage. A way you could do Flechette is AP -2 vs Rigid Armour but AP 2 vs non-Rigid Armour ... as well as the damage not being considered 'bullets' for the purpose of bullet-resistant vests. So a vest with the rigid inserts will kick shotguns (non-flechette ammo) butt but with flechette without the insert they're next to useless.
Dean: "Ya' know she could be faking."

Sam: "Yeah, what do you wanna do, poke her with a stick?"

[Dean nods]

Sam: "Dude, you're not gonna poke her with a stick?"

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Virgobrown72
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#11 Postby Virgobrown72 » Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:02 pm

I like the cone template because it makes my players really think about the Friendly Fire rule... :twisted:

:wink:
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wheatiess
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#12 Postby wheatiess » Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:16 pm

along the line of my first post if the 1-3 shots was combined with the 3-1dx damage it would work as how i intended.
so at short range. 1 3d6 damage shots
at medium range. 2 2d6 damage shots
and at long range 3 1d6 damage shots

i also use 5/10/20 as the range for buckshot and 12/24/48 for slug as normal

would get rid of the +2 for scatter but keep the bystander at 1 or 2
assuming there is a group you are shoting at
at short (0 to 5) range you would hit on (1,2),>=4
medium(>5 to 10) range you would hit on (1,2),>=6
at long(>10 to 20) range you would hit on (1,2),>=8

..maybe keep the +2? so it would be SR=(1,2),>=2 MR=(1,2),>=4 LR=(1,2),>=6

so is one shot at 3d6 good enough if 2 shots at 2d6 is only a few inches back
seeing your going to hit most the time if not raise at close range and 3d6 will be better verse high toughness enemies as each shot will not stack for the 2d6 i think it works

comparing it to a 2d6 pistol with range 10/20/40(easier for comparison)

<5 shotty(3d6 damage +2 to hit) pistol (2d6 damage)
<10 shotty(2d6 damage 2 shots) pistol (2d6 damage)
<20 shotty(1d6 damage 3 shots -2 to hit) pistol (2d6 damage -2 to hit)
20+ shotty(out of range) pistol (2d6 damage -4 to hit)


1d6 it pretty usless but hitting with a few of them can make it practical with aces or verses a huge target where you can get raises to do 2d6 damage

side note:
with the rules as they are if you shot at a group within short range with the +2 from scatter do you automaticaly hit something(ignoring cover and other mods)
bystander on 1,2 hit on 2+(so 3+ )


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