Advise sought on (over)use of Wild Attacks

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Zadmar
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#21 Postby Zadmar » Sun Sep 23, 2012 3:49 pm

Lord Lance wrote:Ehi Zadmar, may I ask you a favor?
Could you make a simulated fight with your simulator? Giving Warrior A standard Stats (something about d8 everywhere, a modifier of +2 to attack, and a modifier of -2 to parry, while Warrior B should be the same of A, but the modifiers are +2 to damage, and -2 to parry.

I'd like to test a sort of "limited power wild attack", giving a choice to my players: Wild Attack for Power (+2 to Damage, -2 to Parry), or Wild Attack for Hit (+2 to Hit, -2 to Parry). I feel that +2 to Hit is more powerful than +2 to Damage, however I'd like to see 100000 simulated fights...

You're right, which is why if you look at Savage Armoury, I rate +1 attack as 3 points and +1 damage as 2 points. Thus +2 damage vs +2 attack is:

There were 100000 fights. Damage won 44143 of them, while Attack won 55857.

While +3 damage vs +2 attack is:

There were 100000 fights. Damage won 49155 of them, while Attack won 50845.

Lord Lance wrote:If you can, please make another wave of fights with heavy armored warriors (3 Armor), or with high parry (+2 maybe for a shield and a rapier)?

Both have 3 armour, +2 damage vs +2 attack:

There were 100000 fights. Damage won 46650 of them, while Attack won 53350.

Both have 3 armour, +3 damage vs +2 attack:

There were 100000 fights. Damage won 52822 of them, while Attack won 47178.

Both get heavy shields (in additional to 3 armour):

There were 100000 fights. Damage won 39289 of them, while Attack won 60711.

Same but this time +3 damage instead of +2:

There were 100000 fights. Damage won 44915 of them, while Attack won 55085.

Redtwin wrote:Hmm. Now that I think about it, wild attacking with a sword and shield is far better than a regular attack with a two hander.

A longsword on its own is better than a two-handed sword, longsword with shield is much better. And you're almost always better off using wild attack in a one-on-one fight to the death.

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#22 Postby GruffaloCrumble » Mon Sep 24, 2012 2:56 am

Perhaps I should just tell them that every time they make a Wild Attack, they have to shout "RAAAAWWWGGH!" or something, after they've been doing that for 20 minutes and everyone else in the club is looking at them funny, I imagine they'll try to rein it in.

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#23 Postby Lord Lance » Mon Sep 24, 2012 6:16 am

GruffaloCrumble wrote:Perhaps I should just tell them that every time they make a Wild Attack, they have to shout "RAAAAWWWGGH!" or something, after they've been doing that for 20 minutes and everyone else in the club is looking at them funny, I imagine they'll try to rein it in.

:lol: :lol: :lol: Ehi, that's a balancing way too! Additionally, in the game their PC is yelling too, so they can't stealthly wild attack... it's pretty noisy! :lol:

However, Zadmar, thanks a lot. I need another couple of simulated combats... would you run'em for me?

This time, I need a "+1 attack, -2 parry" warrior VS "+2 damage, -2 parry" warrior (this should be still pretty balanced, maybe this time the "more damage" option could be slightly preferable, however I'd like to avoid the "+3 damage" thing, thus I think I'll go with those two easy-to-remember options).
Finally, could you run a "+1 attack, -2 parry" warrior VS standard guy, then a "+2 damage, -2 parry" VS standard guy? (of course I want to understand if those new "limited wild attack" options are quite on par with the standard combat stance)
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#24 Postby Zadmar » Tue Sep 25, 2012 4:02 am

Based on the Savage Armoury pricing scheme, "+1 Attack and -2 Parry" is worth -3 points, while "+2 Damage and -2 Parry" is worth -2 points.

There were 100000 fights. Attack won 48649 of them, while Damage won 51351.

There were 100000 fights. Attack won 39447 of them, while Standard Guy won 60553.

There were 100000 fights. Damage won 35873 of them, while Standard Guy won 64127.

Push Fighting up to d10 and you get:

There were 100000 fights. Attack won 48936 of them, while Damage won 51064.

There were 100000 fights. Attack won 37560 of them, while Standard Guy won 62440.

There were 100000 fights. Damage won 39604 of them, while Standard Guy won 60396.

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#25 Postby ValhallaGH » Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:09 am

Zadmar wrote:Based on the Savage Armoury pricing scheme, "+1 Attack and -2 Parry" is worth -3 points, while "+2 Damage and -2 Parry" is worth -2 points.

Giving us a Wild Attack variant that is worse than normal combat.
Interesting - unfun, but interesting.
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#26 Postby Zadmar » Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:13 pm

ValhallaGH wrote:Giving us a Wild Attack variant that is worse than normal combat.
Interesting - unfun, but interesting.

Not my suggestion, I'm just running the simulations!

That said, I could still envision certain situations in which it could prove useful. For example when you outnumber your opponent, or have a reasonable chance of having another action before they can hit you (eg you're last this round, but have Improved Level Headed), or when time is of the essence (eg you have only X rounds to kill the guards and bar the gate before reinforcements arrive).

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#27 Postby Lord Lance » Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:26 pm

ValhallaGH wrote:Interesting - unfun, but interesting.

:mrgreen: I'm just tinkering with the system, 'cause I want to find a better alternative for my group.
As GruffaloCrumble and others, I don't like Wild Attack as THE option for almost every combat (barred when VS overwhelming in number opposition). It's too much effective, and it gives a double advantage to the first attacker. C'mon, why to give up that +2 to attack (so you have a nice bonus to hit, and boosted chance for Raise), AND when you hit, you are nearer to the Raise AND you get on top that extra +2 bonus to Damage?
I know, you can always miss... But if you are a hero, and you have bennies, you could reroll that attack, knowing you'll have more and more chances of winning, if you place that first hit.
If there's one thing that keep my players from wild attacking almost every enemy is the fear I put a custom "First Strike" in the enemy stats. However, it's a limited fear (you can use Reach, etc.), and I cannot repeat this trick with all the enemies.
Sure, I can use the “overpowered” wild attack with my enemies too, however this shouldn’t be the standard behaviour in the game.

So, returning to the initial question, I’m just searching for a “balanced” wild attack, just to give the “right” option in the game: “wanna risk for a lucky/powerful hit?”. Of course, I’ve not found what I’m looking for, yet.
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#28 Postby Jordan Peacock » Thu Sep 27, 2012 12:58 pm

In my games, which are very swashbuckling-centered, I think Wild Attack works just fine. When the heroes are facing large numbers of "mooks" or hordes of zombies or whatever, they're very unlikely to drop their guard and resort to a Wild Attack. However, when a hero is up against a single opponent, or otherwise is compelled to "give it his all" to try to take a bad guy down with a single blow, it seems to me to be a perfectly sensible distinction.

To my mind, the choice between "go Wild Attack" or "not" is basically a choice between "all-out offense" or "standard," with options such as Defend or Full Defense representing the opposite extreme end of the spectrum (although in actual practice those options are rarely worth the trouble except to slightly improve the life expectancy of noncombatants caught in the fray).

If the heroes are up against a goblin, or a bandit, then it's perfectly legitimate for them to go all-out to take the fellow down quickly, before he gets a chance to retaliate.

(It might be funny if that lone goblin/whatever was the guy who drew the short straw to act as a distraction, and now the rest of the goblin band attacks while our heroes are all at -2 Parry. Too bad it doesn't make Wild-Attackers any easier to be hit with ranged attacks, though.)
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#29 Postby Clint » Thu Sep 27, 2012 1:00 pm

Lord Lance wrote:So, returning to the initial question, I’m just searching for a “balanced” wild attack, just to give the “right” option in the game: “wanna risk for a lucky/powerful hit?”. Of course, I’ve not found what I’m looking for, yet.


Yeah, it's important to be aware that those combat simulations can provide some data, but it's extremely limited as far as overall game balance goes.

I'm pretty sure everyone understands that comparing two characters in combat with all the same stats except for one differentiation fighting each other only provides a sliver of the necessary information. To truly compare the two options, those characters would have to fight every other foe in the game, and that doesn't even get into situational effects that can vary round to round.

Ultimately, the most reliable data is going to come from actual play.
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