Classic to reloaded skill test difficulty curve

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iskandar
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Classic to reloaded skill test difficulty curve

#1 Postby iskandar » Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:17 am

hey, I gm'd a good deal of classic games back in the good ol days and am working on a reloaded campaign for a game I am running right here, in boston massachussets (CHEAP POP). Anyway, I was looking at how reloaded handles skill tests and it seems like without aptitude (number o dice for all you young 'uns) it seems like it suddenly has gotten a lot harder to make a roll. I mean, you were always assured to be rolling at least 2, if not 3 dice but now it seems you have to make the same test with a ton less dice. how much harder does it make reloaded, folks?

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#2 Postby GranFalloon » Wed Aug 29, 2012 2:33 am

It's not bad at all. Your usual TN is 4, so a simple d6 has a 50/50 shot of making it. If your character is competent, he's rolling two of those and taking the highest. Stacking a bunch of penalties makes things very difficult (say, drawing and fanning the hammer at a guy's head at long range from the back of a moving horse will get you... i think -16), but enough edges will make things go much more smoothly.

Also, it plays so much faster than Classic.

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#3 Postby ValhallaGH » Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:43 am

And then you factor in the Wild Card quality.
Trait die: Success rate for a Wild Card (TN 4)
d4-2 (untrained): 32.3%
d4: 62.5%
d6: 75%
d8: 81.25%
d10: 85%
d12: 87.5%
d12+1: 94.4%
d12+2: 98.6%

For Extras (most of the NPCs) it's a straight calculation for their Trait die - extras don't get a Wild Die. (d4 to d12: 25%, 50%, 62.5%, 70%, 75%)

Static modifiers are huge, at least as big as they are in Classic, but having that Wild Die really smooths things out for the PCs.

If you're worried about the odds, this is an amazingly useful tool: Savage Worlds Probability Calculator.
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Re: Classic to reloaded skill test difficulty curve

#4 Postby Clint » Wed Aug 29, 2012 12:12 pm

Yeah, there are some inherent system differences that will likely be easier to understand if any comparison to the Classic rules is just dropped. It's really a different game regardless of some apparent similarities.

As others noted, the base TN is different and so is the raise increment, so one d6 and a Wild Die can do what took 3-4 d6s in Classic odds-wise.

Even the very role of Traits (Skills and Attributes in Reloaded terminology) is different between the two systems.

Anyway, just saying, they are very different systems despite their shared heritage.
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iskandar
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#5 Postby iskandar » Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:23 pm

I understand that they are two very different games, however if you look at some pretty important stuff, such as gut checks, they're has been little change, same tm for roughly the same encounters with a similar result for failure. I just spent about an hour working out the probability and here is how it breaks down: if people are interested I will post a google docs explaining all the math, in fact probably will work on creating a deadlands classic probability machine for all you classic gm who want fancy toys too.

Lets say a posse member is forced to see something that recquires a guts roll of tn11 (since guts roll difficulty doesn't change between classic and reloaded and its so important I chose it). Here we are assuming these folks are tough hombres, the classic man has 3d10 guts (which is what any smart player would do considering how crucial it is) and the savage player has d10.

in classic you're chances of not friezing up and watching as your entrails spill out from you are:
2.7% Bust......69% fail......12% success......16%raise

the savage player has: 2% bust....83% Fail....7% success....8% raise.

In short, the classic player has a 28% chance of not dying of a heart attack while the savage player has a 15%, half the chance to pass the test that the classic player has. This is what I mean by the more difficult probability curve, guts, shooting, they all still have the same toughness number from classic to reloaded, yet because of the different dice mechanics, in pure probability terms the classic players both good and bad are going to have an easier time of it hitting the stuff they want as well as passing those fear checks.

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#6 Postby Clint » Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:06 pm

iskandar wrote:Lets say a posse member is forced to see something that recquires a guts roll of tn11 (since guts roll difficulty doesn't change between classic and reloaded...

This is what I mean by the more difficult probability curve, guts, shooting, they all still have the same toughness number from classic to reloaded...


Sorry, but no, they are not the same, at all. That's what we're saying.

In Classic, a TN 11 Gut check was seeing a horror with the specific example of a Wendigo used.

In Reloaded, a Wendigo is a Fear -1 critter. In other words, it takes a 5 or better to succeed.

That's completely different. A d10 Guts in Reloaded would actually have a 73% chance of success or better.

Course, getting a d10 Guts would be a significant thing in Reloaded as opposed to what "any smart player" would have in Classic.

If I might ask, where did the idea that Classic and Reloaded had the same difficulty and toughness numbers?
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#7 Postby iskandar » Thu Aug 30, 2012 1:02 pm

Clint wrote:
iskandar wrote:Lets say a posse member is forced to see something that recquires a guts roll of tn11 (since guts roll difficulty doesn't change between classic and reloaded...

This is what I mean by the more difficult probability curve, guts, shooting, they all still have the same toughness number from classic to reloaded...


Sorry, but no, they are not the same, at all. That's what we're saying.

In Classic, a TN 11 Gut check was seeing a horror with the specific example of a Wendigo used.

In Reloaded, a Wendigo is a Fear -1 critter. In other words, it takes a 5 or better to succeed.

That's completely different. A d10 Guts in Reloaded would actually have a 73% chance of success or better.

Course, getting a d10 Guts would be a significant thing in Reloaded as opposed to what "any smart player" would have in Classic.

If I might ask, where did the idea that Classic and Reloaded had the same difficulty and toughness numbers?


now that I think about it, I actually forget. for some reason of another I remember reading it in the reloaded marshalls book for fear tests but now that I think about it, I'm wrong. At least I got the equations needed for the classic percentage calculator 3000 (99% Zombie Brain Free!) so I'll try and get that running asap.

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#8 Postby Waxahachie » Thu Aug 30, 2012 3:40 pm

I'd like to get a look at that classic percentage calculator whenever you get it working.

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#9 Postby iskandar » Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:22 pm

Waxahachie wrote:I'd like to get a look at that classic percentage calculator whenever you get it working.


the problem is that I don't really know html that way, I could easily program this on a ti83 calculator or mathematica, its getting it to the web page that's tough. I am finishing up the google doc with all the math on it, its actually pretty cool.

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#10 Postby iskandar » Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:46 pm

sorry for the double post but I wanted this to get some color. the math for how dice work has gone up for 1-3 dice, 4 dice is nearly completed. 4 dice is finished, 5 dice you can assume stone is just going to win because he has the best protected by the writers armor since triple h in the early 2000's. You can go to the end of the doc for the results only.


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