Reloading and Firing

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jcayer
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Reloading and Firing

#1 Postby jcayer » Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:43 pm

My group just played a PotSM one shot using the pregens provided. One of the them had edges that allowed him to reload his musket in one turn(instead of 2) and if he didn't move, get a +2 to hit.

One of the players in the group said if the PC did not move, he could reload, and fire in the same round. The -2(multiple actions) and +2(edge) would cancel each other out.

As the GM I had issues with this since there is no negative to the reload since there is no check associated with it.

How is this handled?
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#2 Postby newForumNewName » Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:07 pm

The player was correct.
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ogbendog
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#3 Postby ogbendog » Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:53 pm

He spent two edges, and he can't move.

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#4 Postby jcayer » Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:38 am

When you put it like that.."he took 2 edges", I get it.
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#5 Postby Tavis » Thu Aug 16, 2012 7:18 am

And the downside is definitely "He Can't Move"

So no backing away from the charging native, no dropping prone to avoid incoming fire ... he stands there and shoots, reloads and shoots ...

Very effective yes, but comes with inherent risks.

In a previous 50 Fathoms campaign we had an ex RN Marine who ended up with Musketeer, Marksman and Improved Trademark Weapon.

If he was able to find a nice piece of cover and spend his battles there he was really able to shine.

In other situations his 'fighting style' really didn't help at all - Tavern Brawls certainly weren't his thing! There are times when you don't want to bring a gun to a knife-fight.
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wheatiess
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#6 Postby wheatiess » Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:43 am

in dead lands there is a passage about not being able to multi action reload for powder muskets

Any time your firearm runs out of
ammo, your hero must spend an action reloading.
He can still shoot in the same round, but he takes
a –2 multi action penalty to his Shooting roll.
Weapons with Reload 2 or more work as
described in Savage Worlds. And before you ask—
no, you can’t take a multi-action penalty and get
all the actions done in a single turn! But nice try,
amigo, you’ll go far in the Weird West!

the first bit implies weapon that dont have a reload quality

a crossbow that has reload 1 needs to be cranked and requires a full round and can thus be fired every second round

although the rule book says
Each weapon tells you
how many actions it requires to reload, such as 1/3, which
means the weapon can fire every third round if the firer does
nothing but load every action.

which is either a typo or implies that a reload 1 weapon means nothing

i play that reloading takes the full round with a skill test to load black powder(at +2 for measured flasks of powder so pass most of the time except when on a coach or riding at speed) but have made black powder weapons much more deadly.

so depends on the setting if you have a archer in the group you may want it to be every other round but then i guess archer can take double shot. if it is all black powder maybe every round with the multi action is fine

and

Speed Load
Requirements: Seasoned, Agility d8+, Shooting
d6+
Your pistolero has mastered the fi ne art of loading
his six-gun in an all-fired hurry. Your hero can
reload one weapon on his action, ignoring the usual
–2 penalty to Shooting rolls in the same round.
If your hero is using a weapon that requires a
full round or more to load the time required is
reduced by 1 round.

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#7 Postby Clint » Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:38 am

wheatiess wrote:in dead lands there is a passage about not being able to multi action reload for powder muskets


Right, but as he noted in the first post, the character has the Edge to be able to reload his weapon in one round instead of two. You can't multi-action reloading since it would be duplicating the same action in a turn, but you can multi-action loading with other actions, such as shooting.

So for instance, a character could fire a crossbow (Reload 1) every round; they would just suffer the -2 penalty for multiple actions (reloading and firing).

Same thing applies here since the character has the Edge from Pirates of the Spanish Main that decreases his blackpowder Reload from 2 to 1 like the crossbow.
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wheatiess
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#8 Postby wheatiess » Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:58 pm

but if using the dealand rules how would reload one be diferent form a weapon that does not have reload at all.

the -2 on the turn that you reload is for weapons that have no reload quality for example

the Rupertus Pepperbox can only chamber one round but it could be fired every turn with the -2 penalty as it has NO reload quality similar to many single barrel shotguns

deadland is a different setting and there are no reload one weapons in it but how would you diferenciate between the rupertus pepperbox and a cross bow or is the reload quality one useless in deadlands

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#9 Postby ogbendog » Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:16 pm

by default if no reload is listed, reloading is free.

for example, bows you reload for free. Also guns, all guns in SWD unless noted otherwise, reloading is a free action.

In Deadlands, as you noted, all firearms take at least 1 round to reload. The only weapon without out a reload is a bow.

So a cross bow relaod, the fire, or fire at -2
a pepperbox you can treat just as a crossbow, but of course if it's fully loaded you don't have to worry about reloading, at least for a few rounds.

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#10 Postby wheatiess » Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:18 pm

reloading from soloman kane

Reloading: Weapons such as firearms and
crossbows are very slow to reload. The table
lists how many full actions it requires to
reload such weapons.


crap... i swear one of the setting book says musketter reduces the time it takes by one round making it a one round reload. just read soloman kane and spainish and it says reduced to one action so yes that could be multi actioned.

but my arguement as to the difference between reload 1 and a weapon that can only chamber one round in dealands still stands

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#11 Postby wheatiess » Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:50 pm

evernight characters with musketter can fire every second round instead of every third round. all their weapons are reload 2

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#12 Postby ogbendog » Thu Aug 30, 2012 2:28 am

A reload 1 wpn, like a double barreled shot gun, or a revolver, reloads the entire thing in one round

the pepperbox specifically reloads 1 bullet

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#13 Postby Hellfire6A » Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:04 pm

Clint is the inhouse expert I'd go with what he says.

The PC spent two edges to get this ability. Reward him. He also has some serious inherent risks he'll have to face. Make him face them in game.

What the PC is doing is allowed and within the spirit of the game and gives the GM the chance to mess with him in other situations. Win-win.
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#14 Postby ValhallaGH » Thu Aug 30, 2012 12:06 pm

wheatiess wrote:evernight characters with musketter can fire every second round instead of every third round. all their weapons are reload 2

With Musketeer they treat their weapons as Reload 1. This allows them to fire every round (with a -2 multi-action penalty), or every other round at no additional penalty.
With Musketeer and Marksman, the character can stand their ground and fire every single round at no penalty.
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#15 Postby Lord Lance » Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:25 am

ogbendog wrote:by default if no reload is listed, reloading is free.

for example, bows you reload for free. Also guns, all guns in SWD unless noted otherwise, reloading is a free action.

Wait, there was few wordings about reload, even in the "old" SWEX.
However, we have lot of Clint insights and clarifications about reloading:
Ranged Weapons with a listed Reload time work as stated to reload a single shot. Reloading a single shot of ammunition in any other weapon is a free action.

If the ammunition is particularly small (like a bullet) or the weapon a bit tricky to reload, the GM may require an Agility roll to reload the weapon though it still remains a free action. Loading a bow is generally a free action with no Agility roll (unless the character is in some awkward position).

If a character wants to reload more than one shot in a weapon (and the weapon allows it) or just take their time to reload, they may reload up to a number of shots equal to half their Agility as a normal action. If the weapon is extremely unwieldy or difficult to load, the GM may require an Agility roll to successfully load the shots. Failure means no shots are reloaded.

Some weapons use replaceable magazines for ammunition. One magazine can be fully replaced with another as a normal action. Some revolvers can make use of speedloaders that work the same way.


Reloading Special Weapons
Special Weapons with a listed method of reloading work as stated. Single use Special Weapons (such as grenades) require readying to use (page 63 of SWEX).

Rocket Launchers require one action get a new rocket (a free action if the character has Quick Draw) and one action to reload. A second person with a rocket in hand can reload in one action. The Panzerfaust, M72 LAW, and AT-4 are all single use weapons and cannot be reloaded.

Flamethrowers use about 5 lbs. of fuel per shot. The amount held in a fuel tank varies according to the specific style (30 to 50 lbs. is common). Fuel tanks typically have to be taken off, unsealed, and resealed after fueling; each of these takes a separate action. It takes a further action per 5 lbs. of fuel refilled in the tank.


Should all those details be applied to SWD too? I will do it. However, give no details about changing clips in standard rules is a bit weird. Some tactics about "bullets conservation" fade away with no penalties/actions/rules to change clips etc.
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#16 Postby catalac » Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:27 pm

first off musketeer does not make your gun reload 1. at least not in potsm it gives you the ability to reload in one action there is a difference. why because reload 2 for black powder took rounds not actions just like regular aiming does. that means no movement so musketeer allows you to move too(although marksman takes that away). as such in a flint lock age musketeer is superior to the deadlands speed loader.
and yes although it makes no sense for the base book to be different all deadlands guns are considered to take one action to reload. in the core book reloading happens automatically.

next so you guys don't go so far off topic deadlands, evernight, and others besides the pirate setting books DO NOT COUNT as this thread is not about one of those games but a pirate game.
please stay on topic or not since the OP already got his answer.

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#17 Postby Clint » Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:39 pm

catalac wrote:first off musketeer does not make your gun reload 1. at least not in potsm it gives you the ability to reload in one action there is a difference. why because reload 2 for black powder took rounds not actions just like regular aiming does.


Actually, no. In PotSM, blackpowder weapons specifically say they take two full "actions" to reload, not rounds. And there's nothing about not allowing movement while reloading.

catalac wrote:next so you guys don't go so far off topic deadlands, evernight, and others besides the pirate setting books DO NOT COUNT as this thread is not about one of those games but a pirate game.
please stay on topic or not since the OP already got his answer.


I don't think it's really necessary in the first place to advise folks to stay on topic in a resurrected 2 month old thread for posts that occurred after the OP got his answer.
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#18 Postby catalac » Sat Oct 27, 2012 1:52 am

mmm huh i knew that my search fu sucked but it looked like a recent conversation. guess i should check dates before replying to everything that catches my interests.
my apologizes for necromancy.


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