ROF rate of fire

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wheatiess
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ROF rate of fire

#1 Postby wheatiess » Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:01 pm

rate of fire in this game has always flusterd me just a little
3 shots takes 9 bullets
4 shots takes 16
5 takes 25(well thats an easy number but the others still annoy me)

1)
with no set way in the rules to put two seperate bullets down field guns have to either be burst fire or full auto with no inbetween. with a clip of 30 firing 3 full auto then 1 3round burst is annoying

2)
i have been thinking fire rate should go as follows

single shot as is
double tap as is (+1 dam and accuracy use 2
3RB as is (+2 dam and accuracy use 3

then

2 round full uses 5 bullets
3 round full uses 10 bullets
4 round full uses 15 bullets(should be 16 so either 15 or 20)
5 round full uses 25


3)
this came up due to the 40k conversion i am doing and bolters being a slower rate of fire than autogun and lasguns(certain ones) and i did play test it, not that it is a massive rule but it does work well. makes getting shot per mag eaiser to design and look after in a game that needs +15 mooks to kill a space marine(give them all{or each group} 3 tokens for a 30 round clip and always shoot on full auto)

4)
one gripe was wether 2 full auto should suffer the -2 full auto penalty( but seeing at this stage only bolters use the fire rate it would count as the increased recoil)

5)
has anyone used a conversion that does fire rate differently
inquisitor(d100 game) has - 10 for each shot so if you where doing 3 shots you would roll 3 times each with a -30 penalty
so firing
2 shots would be -2
3 shots would be -3
4 shots would be -4
and full auto rates around 10 become something akin to suppresive fire for which i cannot convert into sav worlds as the chance only lines up at skill die 8 and lower(6 is higher than 8 ) and go way to high from 10 up( love the website any dice)

(for eg. d12 has 75 percent chance of at least 4 and with the inqusitor rule set should have 75/5= 15 percent chance to hit with full auto. cant get them all to line up)
anyway this starts to break the Sav system and does not really go by FFF standards

so once again has anyone used a conversion that does fire rate differently but still stay easy or any feedback on the minor changes to fire rate

farik
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#2 Postby farik » Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:47 pm

I believe the question becomes does this level of complexity actually pay off?

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SeeleyOne
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#3 Postby SeeleyOne » Sun Aug 26, 2012 11:43 pm

I like to simplify the math to the nearest 5. Weapons that have full auto tend to have ammunition capacities that are divisble by 5 (if not 10). For ROF 3, it is 10 shots. ROF 4 is 15 shots. ROF 5 is 25 shots. ROF 6 is 35 shots.
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#4 Postby Vinzent » Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:18 am

Or you could just use the blast templates. Small for 1/4 clip, medium for 1/2 clip, Large for full clip. That's a measure of the total clip capacity, no a percentage of what is left.
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#5 Postby The Dread Polack » Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:08 am

I don't know how big of a deal this really is, but that has always nagged me a bit. If damage and area are tied to a percentage or fraction of your clip, then guns with small ammo capacities are what you want. There would be no reason to buy an extended clip unless you're firing in single-shot mode. You'll save money on bullets with a shorter clip.

Like I said, it's probably not a big deal, but it always bugged me a bit.

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Re: ROF rate of fire

#6 Postby ValhallaGH » Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:43 pm

wheatiess wrote:1)
with no set way in the rules to put two seperate bullets down field guns have to either be burst fire or full auto with no inbetween. with a clip of 30 firing 3 full auto then 1 3round burst is annoying

Rapid Attack allows you to fire each bullet at a single target, up to six bullets per round. So, 5 rounds of shooting guys six at a time.

wheatiess wrote:2)
i have been thinking fire rate should go as follows

Why?
Trying to make bookkeeping easier? But ... only players ever have to track ammo, and that's only for their PCs. Allied extras use the Ammo Level rules, and everyone else is an NPC - allowing them to ignore whatever rules you want them to ignore.
Some other reason?

wheatiess wrote:3)
this came up due to the 40k conversion i am doing and bolters being a slower rate of fire than autogun and lasguns(certain ones) and i did play test it, not that it is a massive rule but it does work well. makes getting shot per mag eaiser to design and look after in a game that needs +15 mooks to kill a space marine(give them all{or each group} 3 tokens for a 30 round clip and always shoot on full auto)

Huh? What is this supposed to mean?

wheatiess wrote:4)
one gripe was wether 2 full auto should suffer the -2 full auto penalty( but seeing at this stage only bolters use the fire rate it would count as the increased recoil)

Autofire should always have the attack penalty.

wheatiess wrote:5)
...
so once again has anyone used a conversion that does fire rate differently but still stay easy or any feedback on the minor changes to fire rate

This one is not a minor change to Rate of Fire. It's an obscenely large change that violates the whole point of firing hundreds of rounds of ammunition - to increase the chances of hitting your target. That's a lot of cognitive dissonance.

Additionally, it seems to be a change to mechanics to make them mirror the mechanics in another RPG - converting mechanics instead of converting flavor. That's a bad idea no matter what games you're converting.
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ogbendog
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Re: ROF rate of fire

#7 Postby ogbendog » Mon Aug 27, 2012 3:19 pm

wheatiess wrote:
2)
i have been thinking fire rate should go as follows

single shot as is
double tap as is (+1 dam and accuracy use 2
3RB as is (+2 dam and accuracy use 3

then

2 round full uses 5 bullets
3 round full uses 10 bullets
4 round full uses 15 bullets(should be 16 so either 15 or 20)
5 round full uses 25



I like this part.

shinryu
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Re: ROF rate of fire

#8 Postby shinryu » Mon Aug 27, 2012 4:16 pm

ogbendog wrote:
wheatiess wrote:
2)
i have been thinking fire rate should go as follows

single shot as is
double tap as is (+1 dam and accuracy use 2
3RB as is (+2 dam and accuracy use 3

then

2 round full uses 5 bullets
3 round full uses 10 bullets
4 round full uses 15 bullets(should be 16 so either 15 or 20)
5 round full uses 25



I like this part.


I don't think it's unreasonable to scale ammo consumption by the actual rate of fire used (so 4 rounds at rof 2, 9 at 3) rather than the weapon's listed rate of fire. I think it's even arguable that for standard 3RB-type weapons giving them Rof 2 for 3 rounds of ammo consumption might be slightly more realistic than the +2 to hit and damage (then reserving 3RB rules as-is for true high-cyclic burst weapons). On the other hand, getting weapons without a burst limiter to not vomit out a great deal more lead than you intended can be tricky for high RoF weapons, so some guns having a minimum RoF isn't unreasonable. Making the MAC10 behave like the proper phone booth gun it is might be too picky for your game though.

On the main topic: since this seems to be 40k specific, I have to agree with Vallalla here; flavor over mechanics. Nothing works right in Warhammer from an actual physics/ballistics/any remote vestiges of common sense perspective anyway, so if the Savage rules lead to similar outcomes as in the original rules, that should be more your guide than the literal reimplementation of the original rules. Bolters should have a very low rate of fire, if i remember correctly, since they kind of sodomize anything they hit, whereas lasguns and stubbers are much more spray-n-pray. I wouldn't think that Rofs of 2/3/4 would be inappropriate.


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