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Jordan Peacock
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#181 Postby Jordan Peacock » Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:52 pm

Awesome dice! :D Now, they just need some MLP villain(?)-themed dice for the GM to roll. (Purple die with a white crescent moon for Luna? Maybe a die with differently-colored inserts for each side, and I can claim it's a "Discord" die. ;D )

(Tangent: I've been thinking about getting some Wonderland-themed Wild Dice, as I've seen some made -- but none through any channels I can order through my "friendly local game store," alas).
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#182 Postby Bobinator » Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:17 pm

I figured some of you folk might be interested in this, if you haven't heard of it already. I've known about it for a while, actually, but since I haven't been on the forum in a long while, I haven't been able to link it.

The Savage World of My Little Pony, 3rd Edition. Yep. Somebody sat down and wrote down a full length supplement. It looks like they put a lot of effort into it, too.

Interesting things about this particular supplement:

- An optional Tenet Against Violence. If the GM uses this, and if any player inflicts or attempts to inflict physical harm on somebody, nobody gets any XP for that session. Key word, however, being 'optional'.
- A good number of new Edges & Hindrances.
- A change to the combat system. Since physical combat is a little discouraged, you can use Intimidate, Persuasion, and Taunt to "attack" enemies. There's also a new skill, Grace, which represents using your agility and speed to confuse and distract opponents.
- Along with Wounds, there's also "Daunts", which represent self-doubt and fear in a character. They work mostly the same way as Wounds, only a Wild Card incapacitated by a Daunt "gives up" on the current combat situation, instead of being injured.
- There's also Permanent Daunts, which is what a character receives if they were to "die" from being incapacitated from a Daunt. Once a Wild Card gets three Permanent Daunts, they give up on the adventure and are removed from the game.
- Unicorns get magic, along with a lot of setting-specific spells, but Pegasuses get Feats of Daring, which lets them perform amazing flight manuevers and other things with their wings. Earth ponies get Feats of Strength, moves based on their incredible determination and will. Feats don't cost Power Points to use, but you can only use one of each rank per session, unless you spend a Benny.
- A whole bunch of new foes, including Changelings, the creatures that it's completely OK to beat the crap out of.

Honestly, while I'm pretty sure I wouldn't play this myself, the 'Daunt' system is something I'm interested in. Personally, when I GM, I actually want to AVOID killing my players, for the most part, since I'm as interested as they are in continuing their stories. Since my personal setting isn't especially "deadly", I figured it'd be a good idea to have injury be both a mix of actual wounds and mental state.

Of course, I wouldn't want to stop anybody from using the ideas in this thread at all. I just figured some of you might want to know about this, and if anybody ends up using it, be sure to let me know!

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#183 Postby Jordan Peacock » Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:00 pm

Bobinator wrote:I figured some of you folk might be interested in this, if you haven't heard of it already.


I think this one (or at least earlier versions of it) have been brought up about twice so far.


Bobinator wrote:- An optional Tenet Against Violence. If the GM uses this, and if any player inflicts or attempts to inflict physical harm on somebody, nobody gets any XP for that session. Key word, however, being 'optional'.


Yeah, well, "optional" may make everything seem better, but I pity the GM who employs this. This is a recipe for player drama, for sure, if anyone falls afoul of it. It's bad enough if you've got a player group where there's one person who just can't stick to genre, or the guy who invokes the "head-shot veto" anytime the "face" guy in the group is trying to come to a peaceful resolution. However, it's another thing if EVERYONE IN THE GROUP IS PUNISHED for the actions of one player/character. Either simply prohibit any actions that are against the genre (i.e., "This is supposed to be a kids' show. NO TORTURE AND DISMEMBERMENT IS ALLOWED IN A KIDS' SHOW!"), or stick the punishment to the offending player.


Bobinator wrote:- A good number of new Edges & Hindrances.


Unfortunately, also quite a good number of NOT-NEW Edges and Hindrances. Charismatic, Danger Sense ... I'm pretty sure that's already covered in the SW core book. Does this really fit fair use for fan-made Savage Worlds supplements? I'd like to cheer on the author, but I'm concerned about this aspect. If an author is trying to make a player handbook that precludes the players having to bother with picking up the Savage Worlds core book, then it's no longer a helpful supplement to Savage Worlds that might help to advertise the system; it's competition.


Boninator wrote:A change to the combat system. Since physical combat is a little discouraged, you can use Intimidate, Persuasion, and Taunt to "attack" enemies.


That part is a cute touch. It would be nice to consider as mechanics for more "kid-friendly" games, I suppose.

Anyway, one concern I've had on this (and it still applies) is that there's a LOT of modification on the core Savage Worlds rules -- and in my opinion, to the point of excess. Consigning Fighting to Strength, for instance, pretty much penalizes the weak-but-agile archetype of character, who might be able to strike well with a fencing foil, and have a better chance of making called shots, but isn't going to be slamming anyone into walls with pure brute force.

Conversely, if you've got the "brick" character who's all muscle but no brains or coordination, previously you could have the guy who tends to miss a lot (imagine the big giant guy slamming his club into the ground as the small agile guy darts about) but when he DOES hit, he dishes out the damage. Now, being a mass of muscle also makes it cheaper for you to be good at aiming your blows (and conversely if you're the agile fencer, it's going to be very expensive for you to improve your Fighting skill unless you bulk up first). Assigning Fighting to Strength is a very D&D-ish approach, where "hit points" blur the distinction between wounds, luck, and plot armor.

Similarly, I'm not sure that rolling Swimming, Climbing, etc., into "Athletics" is such a hot idea. I can easily imagine archetypes where a character might excel at Climbing or at Swimming, but not necessarily the other. Granted, that's a grey area considering how various combat skills are rolled together in the rules as written, but I think it's an over-reach here -- or, more importantly, if I were going for a setting, I'd try to rein in my tendency to over-house-rule and try to stick to the setting rule changes that are NECESSARY to convey the feeling of that setting. Every other tweak that isn't directly related to setting that feeling could be just as easily handled with a house rule as it could with any other setting.
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#184 Postby Bobinator » Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:11 pm

Jordan Peacock wrote:
Bobinator wrote:I figured some of you folk might be interested in this, if you haven't heard of it already.


I think this one (or at least earlier versions of it) have been brought up about twice so far.


Ah, my apologies, then. Still, I figure it's interesting enough it's worth bringing up.

Bobinator wrote:- An optional Tenet Against Violence. If the GM uses this, and if any player inflicts or attempts to inflict physical harm on somebody, nobody gets any XP for that session. Key word, however, being 'optional'.


Yeah, well, "optional" may make everything seem better, but I pity the GM who employs this. This is a recipe for player drama, for sure, if anyone falls afoul of it. It's bad enough if you've got a player group where there's one person who just can't stick to genre, or the guy who invokes the "head-shot veto" anytime the "face" guy in the group is trying to come to a peaceful resolution. However, it's another thing if EVERYONE IN THE GROUP IS PUNISHED for the actions of one player/character. Either simply prohibit any actions that are against the genre (i.e., "This is supposed to be a kids' show. NO TORTURE AND DISMEMBERMENT IS ALLOWED IN A KIDS' SHOW!"), or stick the punishment to the offending player.[/quote]

Honestly, I'd agree with you 100% on that. Hopefully, anybody who GMed this wouldn't stick so closely to the rules that they'd force that on everybody.

Bobinator wrote:- A good number of new Edges & Hindrances.


Unfortunately, also quite a good number of NOT-NEW Edges and Hindrances. Charismatic, Danger Sense ... I'm pretty sure that's already covered in the SW core book. Does this really fit fair use for fan-made Savage Worlds supplements? I'd like to cheer on the author, but I'm concerned about this aspect. If an author is trying to make a player handbook that precludes the players having to bother with picking up the Savage Worlds core book, then it's no longer a helpful supplement to Savage Worlds that might help to advertise the system; it's competition.[/quote]

Also a good point. It is a little concerning, although, to be fair, you'd probably have a REALLY hard time running a "normal" Savage Worlds adventure if this was the only book you had.

Bobinator wrote:A change to the combat system. Since physical combat is a little discouraged, you can use Intimidate, Persuasion, and Taunt to "attack" enemies.


That part is a cute touch. It would be nice to consider as mechanics for more "kid-friendly" games, I suppose.


I've actually been pondering making a custom setting that's more like an action/adventure cartoon, like, say, Pirates of Dark Water, if anybody remembers that, so that's why I'm interested in that particular idea.

Anyway, one concern I've had on this (and it still applies) is that there's a LOT of modification on the core Savage Worlds rules -- and in my opinion, to the point of excess. Consigning Fighting to Strength, for instance, pretty much penalizes the weak-but-agile archetype of character, who might be able to strike well with a fencing foil, and have a better chance of making called shots, but isn't going to be slamming anyone into walls with pure brute force.


I assume that's another subtle discouragement towards the whole "fighting is bad, never do it or we'll punish you for it" thing. It's always possible to house rule it back to Agility.

Conversely, if you've got the "brick" character who's all muscle but no brains or coordination, previously you could have the guy who tends to miss a lot (imagine the big giant guy slamming his club into the ground as the small agile guy darts about) but when he DOES hit, he dishes out the damage. Now, being a mass of muscle also makes it cheaper for you to be good at aiming your blows (and conversely if you're the agile fencer, it's going to be very expensive for you to improve your Fighting skill unless you bulk up first). Assigning Fighting to Strength is a very D&D-ish approach, where "hit points" blur the distinction between wounds, luck, and plot armor.

Similarly, I'm not sure that rolling Swimming, Climbing, etc., into "Athletics" is such a hot idea. I can easily imagine archetypes where a character might excel at Climbing or at Swimming, but not necessarily the other. Granted, that's a grey area considering how various combat skills are rolled together in the rules as written, but I think it's an over-reach here -- or, more importantly, if I were going for a setting, I'd try to rein in my tendency to over-house-rule and try to stick to the setting rule changes that are NECESSARY to convey the feeling of that setting. Every other tweak that isn't directly related to setting that feeling could be just as easily handled with a house rule as it could with any other setting.


Honestly, I couldn't really think of any way to translate the show to SW besides this, besides making some serious changes. Savage Worlds, as a general rule, is about as far from colorful cartoon ponies as you get. :P

Not saying I'm disagreeing with you on any of this, you raise good points. Just giving my own two cents.

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#185 Postby SavageGamerGirl » Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:43 pm

It also looks like he's incorporating stuff from d20 D&D in this edition, what with the spell schools and so on. I'm not sure why he felt that was a necessary modifications to SW powers.
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#186 Postby Jordan Peacock » Wed Jul 18, 2012 9:59 pm

Bobinator wrote:Still, I figure it's interesting enough it's worth bringing up.


Well, I hadn't seen the 3rd edition, at least (date-marked from this June, so it's fairly new).


Bobinator wrote:It is a little concerning, although, to be fair, you'd probably have a REALLY hard time running a "normal" Savage Worlds adventure if this was the only book you had.


That might well be, but even licensee products (such as, say, Wonderland No More) can't duplicate material from Savage Worlds products without special permission. There are a few things in WNM that duplicate things found in SW products, but Mr. Anderson had to get special permission for those from the content-makers. When it came to power lists, Edges, Hindrances, etc., that duplicated material in the core book, all we could do was to have a cross-reference. We could have spell lists, detail any NEW powers introduced, and detail any TWEAKS to existing powers, but we couldn't go presenting the bolt power, et al, or even provide a rough summary, even if that might be rather more convenient for the reader. That's the way things go. The Savage World of My Little Pony seems to be miraculously free of such constraints, however.

Plus, here's a quote from someone in the comments:

(in response to someone saying he doesn't have the Savage Worlds Deluxe rules)

(someone on DeviantArt) wrote:Nah, you don't really need the Savage Worlds Deluxe Edition. Giftkrieg's done a really good job with his rulebook and (IMO) all you need is this freebie Savage Worlds: Test Drive. That's a basic version of the rules, so we don't get all the fluff and junk about monsters/etc we're never going to encounter because our characters are ponies and Giftkrieg's already has monsters in his rulebook.


Like, ouch.



Bobinator wrote:I've actually been pondering making a custom setting that's more like an action/adventure cartoon, like, say, Pirates of Dark Water, if anybody remembers that, so that's why I'm interested in that particular idea.


Heh. Yeah, I remember that. :) Well, actually, you could probably go with something like 50 Fathoms for the "crunch," and then apply a few "mood" setting rules.


Bobinator wrote:I assume that's another subtle discouragement towards the whole "fighting is bad, never do it or we'll punish you for it" thing. It's always possible to house rule it back to Agility.


It's possible, I guess.

If the issue is "discourage rampant violence," my personal preference would be more of a carrot-and-brick-wall approach, and leave the stick out entirely.

Or, in other words, if you accomplish things peaceably or heroically, you get some sort of incremental rewards, perhaps a little bit like the Fame points in Pirates RPG, where you get some sort of additional benefits upon reaching certain checkpoints. I'd call it Karma, but it probably needs some sort of pony-pun.

Let's call 'em "Friendship Points" for extra sappiness, just for the sake of argument/brainstorming. You might get a Friendship Point for taking the trouble to help a pony (or other creature) with an "unimportant side quest" that confers no more "material" reward. Maybe a couple of points for resolving a conflict peacefully that you COULD have dealt with by resorting to stampeding over your enemies. Three points for catching the GM off-guard and really impressing everyone by engineering a moment that really feels like it belongs in the show, above and beyond what was "intended" to happen in the adventure already.

Maybe every 10 points or so, you get some sort of "perk" -- eventually gaining your own Pony Pet, making some sort of connection with a friend who can offer you useful favors now and again (perhaps even some Canterlot royalty such as Luna or Celestia), gaining a minor attunement with one of the Elements of Harmony (with a group vote on which one you best exemplify) that gains you some sort of minor bonus to certain trait rolls relating to that element, etc. It could be a long time before you actually reach any of those goals, and in a typical campaign you might never get to the "big" ones, but it's still something to shoot for, and a way to acknowledge players who are sticking to the spirit of the game rather than treating it like D&D.

That was the carrot. Then there'd be the brick wall: a big "NO" from the GM if the player crosses certain lines. What are those lines? The GM should work it out with the players. If you've got a couple of players who want to play in a world of Saturday-morning-cartoon cheeriness, and a couple of players who delight at the idea of Pinkie-Pie going psycho and slaughtering half of Ponyville in a bloodbath ... you've got your work cut out for you. Just walk into the game with that set of players, and "bloodbath" is going to beat out "sunny cheerfulness." You only need ONE evisceration to lose your G rating, no matter how hard the others try to make up for it with sunny goodness. If the players don't want that sort of thing in their campaign, then it just should not happen. No XP loss threat; it's just not going to happen, and if someone tries, the GM forbids it, because it's against the "player contract" the group agreed upon when starting the campaign.


Now, just to be clear, I think a lot of work and thought has gone into this, and there are a number of items that I think are actually quite clever. I just tend to generate a lot more verbiage on the negative because I feel I have to justify my point of view a lot more than when I go, "Cool!"

The Daunt and Clash of Wills mechanics are quite interesting and seem entirely appropriate to the sorts of conflicts that should happen in a game like this.

I can appreciate the step away from Power Points as well, since that can be a hassle for bookkeeping. In the show there's a precedent for unicorns getting tired of using magic, but it seems to be only after a GREAT DEAL of magic usage -- the sort of usage that would far more quickly exhaust anyone sticking to the 10- or 20-point AB frameworks typical to Savage Worlds.


I find "cantrips" interesting in that minor effects are possible without having to bother with a spellcasting roll (such as casting light). However, I see a lot that feels very D&D-ish, and unlike D&D, a pony spellcaster isn't going to have a very wide repertoire of powers, so spending a "slot" on a cantrip is a pretty big deal when you COULD have gone with a more potent power for the same "cost."


Feats as presented here are interesting, but I'd need to look at them in more detail. Is this a D&D-ism? (I'm a bit behind on my D&D editions. The last version of D&D I ran was 3.5, which had "Feats," but I'm not sure how those have changed in more recent versions.)


Also, I like the extensive detail in the bestiary, and have to give them credit for putting a lot of work into that. (I'm a bit puzzled by the Wonderlandish entries, since I don't think I've seen any hints of Wonderland mythos in the TV series, but ... eh ... it's out there in the public domain, so why not?)


Anyway, if I ever stumble across some suitable 28mm-scale ponies (or something in that neighborhood), I might run a game just for the fun of it, but I think I might just stick to a one-shot game, avoiding all the complex frameworks required to let players shop for setting-specific Advances and buy gear and such (especially with the clunky monetary system here). I'd probably just stick with basic Savage Worlds rules, but lay down a few expectations (i.e., keep it clean, kiddos!) and take some inspiration on how to handle non-violent conflicts using other skills. (But then, SWD has a bit of a precedent for that in its handling of social "combat," too.)
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#187 Postby VonDan » Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:35 am

Jordan Peacock wrote:Anyway, if I ever stumble across some suitable 28mm-scale ponies (or something in that neighborhood), I might run a game just for the fun of it,


How tall is that in mm at the ponies withers

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#188 Postby The Dread Polack » Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:44 am

VonDan wrote:How tall is that in mm at the ponies withers


That might not have been a serious question, but if according to Wikipedia: "For many forms of competition, the official definition of a pony is a horse that measures less than 14.2 hands (58 inches, 147 cm) at the withers."

That means they should be at most about 24mm at the withers. Not significantly bigger than a human. I'm not sure what the smallest MLP:FiM toys are, but you could probably use those as minis. After all, there aren't any humans in Equestria anyway. :)

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#189 Postby Snate56 » Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:28 pm

The problem comes in with the size of the play area. There are some "mystery" bag type ponies out there but I don't know how to get them. I believe they are little more than an 1 1/2" tall? And with molded hair. And there's a wide variety.
The McDonald's ponies are 3" and there's too few.




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#190 Postby Sweeper » Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:39 am

(Somewhat off-topic, but could be fun none the less)

Between this thread and having recently watched TableTop's play of Fiasco,http://youtu.be/WXJxQ0NbFtk I can't help but wonder what a Fiasco Playset based on MLP would look like.

(Back on topic)

Snate56 wrote:The problem comes in with the size of the play area. There are some "mystery" bag type ponies out there but I don't know how to get them. I believe they are little more than an 1 1/2" tall? And with molded hair. And there's a wide variety.
The McDonald's ponies are 3" and there's too few.
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From what I've seen, there is a proverbial metric ton of MLP fan art out there. One could easily make counters out of them if minis are needed.
I'm wise enough to know that I don't know half as much as I think I know. Y'know?

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#191 Postby Clint » Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:34 am

Snate56 wrote:The problem comes in with the size of the play area. There are some "mystery" bag type ponies out there but I don't know how to get them. I believe they are little more than an 1 1/2" tall? And with molded hair.


Check Wal-Mart for the individual mystery bags. Or Toys'R'Us has a non-random set of 12 if you can find it. It comes with the six main characters and six other ponies. Ah, google for the win...

http://www.toysrus.com/product/index.js ... d=11872842
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#192 Postby VonDan » Sun Jul 22, 2012 1:29 am

If your talking official ponies or pony look a likes i have no idea, i find MLP all the time in toy bags but they are huge compared to game mini and i toss them

I have a couple random Horses from Junk store grab bags that are 28mm at the withers but i have no idea ware they are from,


Some reviews for Safari Toobs say the horses fit 28mm

Locally I see them at Michaels for $7.95


http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz5bhn?More-on-Safari-Toobs

http://www.amazon.com/Safari-Ltd-Horses-Toobs/dp/B005V2Z1SS

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#193 Postby SavageGamerGirl » Sun Jul 22, 2012 12:41 pm

And if you don't mind using figure flats and know how to set them up at the right scale, you can use 'generalzoi's' awesome Pony Creator:

http://generalzoi.deviantart.com/#/d47efz4

It's fairly show-accurate, and you can even import an image for a cutie mark and pose the character as you like.
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#194 Postby VonDan » Sun Jul 22, 2012 3:40 pm

You could just got with a larger scale and use real My Little Ponies. I'm working out a game for the Princess Nerdia ware we will use Schleich Knights and Faries

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#195 Postby Snate56 » Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:58 pm

Cool. Thanks Clint.

Von Dan, Still have the problem with scale and the molded hair makes it easier for repaints and other customization. Besides, that would get expensive! :eek:




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#196 Postby Jordan Peacock » Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:29 pm

I've actually got some of those Safari "Toob" horses, which I picked up for horse/rider conversions, and they're about the right scale for 28-34mm miniatures (with some wiggle room).

There are some plastic mini-ponies that don't have the soft hair; I think they're somewhere in the range 1.5" high. I've heard that Wal-Mart had a gift pack of 24 at some point that were all individually bagged (billed as "party favors" you could give out, or else get the whole set for collecting purposes), with all of the basic figures from "Wave I" of the mini-pony line.

Of course, a major consideration for me is ... how much is it going to set me back to get something that's probably just going to be for a convention one-shot gag? :) I don't want to buy a bunch of expensive toys; for me, a lot of my projects are entirely "targets of opportunity" defined by what I can get on sale, clearance, or as part of a trade.

I actually have a bunch of plastic horses I got in a big grab-bag deal a while back in exchange for painting someone's 40K army. It's a freezer bag of Warhammer plastic horses (mostly Bretonnian) and their knightly riders, most of them with tails broken off and other minor defects that could be fixed with a bit of pinning and glue. I suppose it might be amusing if I were to paint them up in MLP colors, and paint their "cutie-marks" as insignia on their caparisons or barding. The tough choice would be whether I'd want to attempt MLP-style mane-styling with some putty (which would look absurd no matter how I do it, I'm sure) -- as that would be part of what would make the "ponies" recognizable. I suppose I might find some conventional dragon I could try to paint up in a Spike scheme (perhaps one of those little Reaper "dragon familiars").

They'd be entirely the wrong proportions, and without the cute MLP look, but that could just be part of the gag, combined with the fact that they'd be characters in a more-or-less conventional D&D-style dungeon bash. :D (Only with a much higher mortality rate, if I'm using Savage Worlds rules, and without the buffer zone of hit points and plentiful healing potions.)

I actually have quite a few skeletal horses from my old Warhammer Fantasy Battle days (with my skeleton army), as I never bothered gluing down the skeleton cavalry to their mounts, so I could probably manage a ponies-vs.-undead scenario pretty easily. :D Really, the MLP universe offers a wide range of "monsters" that could work out -- and, apparently the Gates of Tartarus are within walking (or trotting) distance of Ponyville! (Good grief!)
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#197 Postby Snate56 » Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:47 pm

Well, I'd like to set something up to have ready for a kid's game should I get the chance. I think it would be a great intro to the Savage system and I would run it serious.



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#198 Postby cssmythe3 » Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:47 am

One quick way to get a lot of minis is have a 4 year old daughter - so I'm good to go with a complete set!

I surprised this hasn't come up yet, the writers REALLY LIKE star wars:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4wh4FnwiAg

That's when I started watching the show with my daughter.

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#199 Postby Snate56 » Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:53 am

Yeah, I noticed that too!, but it is pretty typical of a royal awards presentation.



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#200 Postby SavageGamerGirl » Fri Aug 03, 2012 5:44 pm

It's a boon for all pony gamers everywhere!

We now have an official map of Equestria to work from! It's not to scale, but at least it gives us a base to work from.

http://www.equestriadaily.com/2012/08/o ... cture.html


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-6OE3RdQFSJM/U ... /1yawf.jpg
'But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.

'Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: 'we're all mad here.'

The Order of the Dice... OF DOOM!


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