DLR: Wierd Science and Ghostrock problem

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wyrdhamster
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DLR: Wierd Science and Ghostrock problem

#1 Postby wyrdhamster » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:08 am

Even if I love the setting, I had a huge fight yasterday with Piotr Korys ( :( ) about this problem - Weird Scientists can make anything to work, like solar powered guns. But only those gadgets that run on ghostrock are mass produced. Ergo, sciensist that want to cash they inventions and sell them, say, to Hellstromme Industires, need to power they invenitons on ghostrock - to make real profit. The problem is ther isn't any rate in witch the ghostrock powered gadget burns mineral. And it's crucial to Wierd Scientists, because, as they run they projects on ghostrock, they use it. And this mean, they can have lost all resources nad look for more. Only problem is how much time they got before it. In Eureka Egde there is mentioning that Hell Machines are using ghostrock in pace of 20 "shots" on on pound. So for time being it's enough solution for me, only looking for more official ruling on this.

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#2 Postby jpk » Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:53 am

I think you've missed a critically important element.

[Note: Potential spoilers below for those really unfamiliar with Mad Science in Deadlands. Highlight to read.]

Mad Scientists in Deadlands can't actually make solar-powered guns. If it's a personal Mad Scientist's weapon (one he's bought as a power), it's actually being powered by the manitous he doesn't realize he's working with and that are slowly driving him insane.

Mass-produced items cannot rely on the same power source, so they have to use Ghost Rock.

That's the way I've always seen it, at least.

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#3 Postby wyrdhamster » Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:51 am

This is exactly as I seen this. Even more, based on logical and scientific aproche, most Wierd Sciensits will use gadgets based on ghostrock ( even if it need or not need to burn it ), just because it's then after produced Hell Machines working only on ghostrock. Then we have question of how much ghostrock gadgets will spend in one "shot" of power imbued in it.

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#4 Postby wanderingmystic » Tue Apr 03, 2012 2:37 pm

That is up to the marshal, I wish I could give you an exact number but there isnt one. If you have Smith and Roberts catalog it has different ghost rock consumption cost for every single item in it (and several which have no cost at all. In addition they have boilers and furnaces designed to use Ghost Rock to create power.

in the book it has a steam wagon go for 60 mile on 1 lb of ghost rock (15 mph so it runs for 4 hours), while the smaller and lighter velocipede can go for 100 miles (20mph so it runs for 5 hours) on the same amount, so you just have to use your best judgment. The chainsaw which is connected to the same type of boiler as the velocipede dosnt have a cost listed I would say it could run for about 5 hours on 1lb of ghost rock so a 1 oz chunk would last for 15minuts or so.

note the book dose use special ghost rock fuel rode designed to burn hotter and longer , it says most standard ghost rock last half as long and produces half as much power.

And as a side note, not everything requires a ghost rock power supply, some things use clockworks (Gatling guns), some just needed the strength from ghost steel (armors).

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#5 Postby Clint » Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:29 pm

wanderingmystic wrote:And as a side note, not everything requires a ghost rock power supply, some things use clockworks (Gatling guns), some just needed the strength from ghost steel (armors).


Even hand held gatling weapons tend to use ghost steel springs. You can usually find ghost rock or ghost steel in most every mad science device though rarely it could be used in the manufacturing process instead of the actual item itself, but that would be pretty darn rare.
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#6 Postby wyrdhamster » Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:14 pm

The only problem I have is there aren't ANY guidance for how much ghost rock gadgets would burn. I have now train campaing with two mad sciensits, and ghostrock becomes more and more as issue - how much is burned, how many is left, how fricey it is, etc.

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#7 Postby geijhan » Wed Apr 04, 2012 8:08 am

Uh, you bring up the Eureka edge yourself and there's the data in Smith & Robards, so I'd say there ARE guidelines. I think everybody's stuck on what exactly it is you want from here on in.

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#8 Postby Clint » Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:38 am

Are you talking about ghost rock use for gizmos, the Mad Scientist's inherent "powers?"

If so, there are no set guidelines specifically because it can vary hugely based on the trappings chosen for the gizmo/power. Even then, mad scientist's can't "mass produce" gizmos by definition. That's exactly what the Eureka Edge is for.

Again, if that is the question, this might help explain further...

http://www.peginc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=129938#129938
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#9 Postby catalac » Sun Jun 17, 2012 2:04 am

well ok the eureka edge has it set at 20 well since thats a legend edge the normal is normally less so say a base of 10

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#10 Postby skylion » Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:56 am

Far be it for me to tell anyone how to run a game, campaign or setting but I'll give my two cents (adjusted for inflation).

There is a specific reason why there are no strict guidelines: It's not important.

This isn't saying that such a guideline is un-important. It's just that on the list of priorities you set up for FFF style of game play, a ghost rock burn rate guideline is going to be far down the list. And if you worry about this sort of thing, you might be doing it wrong. Deadlands is a hairy, scary adventure, and MS devices are really really really meant to be things that regularly blow up and cause massive amounts of damage to things that scream and bleed and to the mind that withers at the sight of failure. Your MS character will probably worry overmuch about how much ghost rock he has access to; don't make his problems your problems. Have fun.

Again, not telling you how to run things, or even how to think about it; just an idea for consideration; by all means you could be doing it right!

And because I cannot help but fiddle around with an idea:

Die types. Each device has a Ghost Rock Supply Die type. This is exactly the die type of the skill it uses when the MS created it. So if an MS has an arcane skill of d10, then his Transmorphic Field Emitter (Shapeshifting) has a Ghost Rock Die type of d10. Every time you burn out all the PP on that device, it goes down. When you burn out of PP on a d4....time to get another ounce/pound/ton of ghost rock for that device.
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#11 Postby catalac » Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:05 pm

ok his idea is much better then mine good job.

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#12 Postby wanderingmystic » Sun Jun 17, 2012 9:13 pm

just so you know, if you are talking about powers you have as a mad scientist then they do not take ghost rock to refuel them. You only need to have ghost rock to refuel when it is a gizmo you have created based on the eureka power or building a pre existing Mad Science device like what is in the Smith and Roberts catalog.

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#13 Postby catalac » Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:15 am

ah you see thats the problem you see. it is said that ghost rock is what makes new science so according to the story line mad science MUST use ghost rock.(even if its just because it needs ghost steel.) the problem being is the reason you'd assume it doesn't. they tell us it uses ghost rock they just don't talk about it in the mechanics section.

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#14 Postby wanderingmystic » Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:44 am

When I said that it dose not use ghost rock I meant that is dose not necessarily use ghost rock as a fuel supply
The upside of it being a power is that the you dont have to worry about the ghost rock cost.

Clint then goes on to say that if you wanted to add one in you could as a trapping but it would increase the effectiveness of the power.

Not exactly. Not all powers would use ghost rock as a consumable. The possible ways the power could work is really open to the imagination of the player.

One version of bolt could be a gun using powdered ghost rock as propellant while another could use a "ghost steel capacitor" to store and fire static charges.

In essence, it gets into the trappings of the power as per the core rulebook. The GM could require a certain amount of ghost rock as above to cover the trappings, or run it based off the desciption of the individual power.

For instance, two characters have burst. One has a static discharge device with a "ghost steel capacitor" as above. The capacitor recharges off of ambient static electricity. Mechanically, the GM rules it works pretty much as written, but the electrical trappings would allow for special use (maybe a Medium Burst Template effect if fired into water, etc.).

The other has a flamethrower, but he says his flamethrower uses gas that builds up from ghost rock, and it uses a 1 lbs. chunk to recharge all PPs (adding more PPs later just makes it more efficient). The GM rules this as a significant limitation on the power (enough to adjust its effect). He says using pure ghost rock means the flames burn hotter. The burst will do 2d12 damage and increases the chance of targets catching fire by 1. However he also points out that same chance of catching on fire will apply in the case of a malfunction.

Anyway, there is no specific rule on how much ghost rock would be needed for Mad Science powers. The official take would be to handle it under individual trappings, but a setting rule on trappings could be used instead.

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#15 Postby catalac » Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:53 am

yes indeed he did. and clint is a master of mechanics so yes he is right. the problem being is that the storyline which has absolutely no effect on mechanics say otherwise. thus confusion and where there is confusion there is timmy the power gamer and where he is there are frustrated gms on the forum asking for a ruling. and so here we are.
edit: so to clarify my earlier point you are right the rule book just doesn't take the time to say so.

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#16 Postby ValhallaGH » Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:30 am

catalac wrote:ythe problem being is that the storyline which has absolutely no effect on mechanics say otherwise.

There is no disagreement within the book.

None.

Now, go blow up your Mad Scientist, using his own malfunctioning gizmos. :evilbat:
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#17 Postby MeetsInTaverns » Wed Aug 22, 2012 2:15 am

Can someone give me a brief overview of the Eureka edge please and page reference

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#18 Postby ValhallaGH » Wed Aug 22, 2012 2:44 pm

Player's Guide, page 90 (in the Mad Science part of No Man's Land).

One of your gizmos stops using power points and becomes a ghost-rock fueled prototype for mass production. It gets 20 uses (or two hours) from a pound of ghost rock, only malfunctions on a critical failure, and the successful marketing to one of the big boys gets you +2 Charisma (for mad scientists only) and $ 1d6*50 each month in royalties.
"Got a problem? I've got the solution: Rocket Launcher."
"Not against a Servitor."
"... We're all gonna die."

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#19 Postby MeetsInTaverns » Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:40 pm

[quote="ValhallaGH"]Player's Guide, page 90 (in the Mad Science part of No Man's Land).

One of your gizmos stops using power points and becomes a ghost-rock fueled prototype for mass production. It gets 20 uses (or two hours) from a pound of ghost rock, only malfunctions on a critical failure, and the successful marketing to one of the big boys gets you +2 Charisma (for mad scientists only) and $ 1d6*50 each month in royalties.[/quotcheers

And that is awesome

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#20 Postby MeetsInTaverns » Wed Aug 22, 2012 4:41 pm

ValhallaGH wrote:Player's Guide, page 90 (in the Mad Science part of No Man's Land).

One of your gizmos stops using power points and becomes a ghost-rock fueled prototype for mass production. It gets 20 uses (or two hours) from a pound of ghost rock, only malfunctions on a critical failure, and the successful marketing to one of the big boys gets you +2 Charisma (for mad scientists only) and $ 1d6*50 each month in royalties.


cheers

And that is awesome


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