Dodging....

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SilasWrathStrike
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Dodging....

#1 Postby SilasWrathStrike » Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:55 pm

Dodging in our group has always been a rather inexact science. They way we've been playing it for years is that if, in a shooting example, someone has a -6 modifier to hit you, they need an 11 right? So your Dodge roll has to be a 12 or better. Recently I saw a different explanation on an accumulated rulings website. So tell me, is this how Dodging officially works?:

So the base TN to hit you is always 5, then there are modifiers for various things. If you make a Dodge roll, your dodge result becomes the new (original) TN. I do think there's a very simple way to do this in-game. If Buck shoots at James, with a range & wound penalty of -6, his TN is 5 with a -6 modifier. Buck needs an 11 to come up on his dice to hit. If James Dodges, his result becomes the new (old) TN. SO. If he rolls a 8 on Dodge, 8 replaces 5 as the TN. The quick way to do this just means Buck's original roll is required to be 3 higher (or 14 instead of 11). So whatever you roll for Dodge, subtract 5 (if it's 5 or less they said don't bother, take the 5), that's what the shooting result must be higher by. If your Dodge roll is a 6, they need to roll 1 higher than what's required (6-5=1). If your Dodge roll is a 10, they need to roll 5 higher than previously necessary (10-5=5).

So Buck needs an 11 originally. James Dodges with a total result of 9 (9-5=4) so Buck needs 11+4 or 15 to hit. If Buck rolled an 11-14 originally then he does miss, if he rolled a 15 or higher he hits.

Wow, typing it out made it seem even more reasonable and less complicated. Your result minus 5 is how much more they need to roll by.

This also makes more sense to me because someone who's got a -15 modifier going for them just barely managed to nick you with a roll of 20, but you're supposed to roll a Friggin' 21 to Dodge out of the way of something that just barely hit you.

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Re: Dodging....

#2 Postby ValhallaGH » Thu Jul 21, 2011 7:02 am

SilasWrathStrike wrote:Wow, typing it out made it seem even more reasonable and less complicated.

Excellent! Because that is how it is supposed to work. :-D
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#3 Postby SilasWrathStrike » Thu Jul 21, 2011 5:58 pm

Hm, does Dodging (with your Fighting dice) work the same in melee? Or does your normal levels of Fighting actually raise the normal TN to hit you, so you have to score higher than 5+fighting levels to do anything? How does a defensive bonus work with weapons?

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#4 Postby ValhallaGH » Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:52 am

SilasWrathStrike wrote:Hm, does Dodging (with your Fighting dice) work the same in melee? Or does your normal levels of Fighting actually raise the normal TN to hit you, so you have to score higher than 5+fighting levels to do anything? How does a defensive bonus work with weapons?

Fightin' levels and the weapon's Defense Bonus raise the TN to hit you. So, when vamoosin' a fightin' attack you want to beat the base TN to hit you (but not the attack roll, which can still suffer wound, sleep, ailin', lighting, cover, and called shot penalties). If you don't beat it, then you actually got easier to hit, and may give your foe an extra Raise.
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#5 Postby Cable Hogue » Sat Jul 23, 2011 11:45 am

I'll ad my question to this topic just to be able to clearly understand, how Vamoosin' is meant to be applied.

Dodgin' vs. Shootin'

An opponent fires a gun at 3 range increments at my character. His base TN to beat by his Shootin' roll is TN 5. The 3 range increments add to it, making it TN 8. He tries a called shot to the head, giving him -6 on his roll. So he needs a 14 to hit my character right in the head. He rolls a 15 and succeeds with his head shot.

What do I have to roll on my Dodgin' roll to let his head shot miss my character?

a) I have to roll at least a 16 (more than his roll) on my Dodgin' dice to evade his far ranging and difficult (-6) shot.

b) I have to roll at least a 10 (more than his roll minus the head shot penalty).

c) I have to roll at least a 7 (more than the base-TN of 5 for ranged attacks).

To me interpretation c) is the only one, that makes sense.

Interpretation a) has the problem, that any lucky shot, which hit under a load of negative modifiers, would be harder to dodge, than a clean shot at close range without any gun-fu frills. That sounds not so plausible to me.
The same problem has Interpretation b), because a shot from close range would be much easier to dodge than a long-range shot, while long-range shots should be easier to dodge than a shot at short range or even point blank range.

Do I understand Vamoosin' of ranged attacks correctly?



Fightin' vs. Fightin'

An opponent attacks my character, who has Fightin' 3. The base TN for close combat is TN 5 plus "passive defense" equalling the levels of the Fightin' aptitude the target has. So it would be 5 + 3 = TN 8.
My character employs a weapont giving him Defensive Bonus +2. This would make the TN for hitting him in close combat TN 10.
The opponent tries a called shot to the head (-6 penalty) and needs therefore a 16 to hit successfully. He rolls a 17 and hits my noggin'.

What do I have to roll on my Fightin' roll to let his head shot in close combat miss my character?

a) I have to roll at least a 18 (more than his roll) on my Fightin' dice to evade his difficult (-6) fighting attack.

b) I have to roll at least a 12 (more than his roll minus the head shot penalty).

c) I have to roll at least a 7 (more than the base-TN of 5 to which my Fightin' Aptitude levels and the Defensive Bonus of my weapon are added).

Here I am at a loss, because interpretation b) seems to make more sense. In b) the Fightin' Aptitude level (passive defense) and the weapon's DB are already figured in - and it seems to me more plausible, that I'd have to be BETTER in my active defense than what my passive defense including weapon-DB provides me.


Please help me clear this mess of (mis-)understanding up!

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#6 Postby Cable Hogue » Sat Jul 23, 2011 11:58 am

ValhallaGH wrote: If you don't beat it, then you actually got easier to hit, and may give your foe an extra Raise.
Probably another misunderstanding on my part.

I thought Vamoosin' never lets you end with a worse TN to hit you than your passive defense.

So rolling a 3 vs. a Shootin' attack doesn't make you easier to hit than the base TN of 5. And as range adds to the TN and does not penalize the attack roll, it shoulc be considered part of the "passive defense" vs. ranged attacks. So at 3 range increments the base TN would be 8. And any Vamoosin' would not lead to a worse result than the already occured hit against this TN 8.

In the same direction of thought, rolling a 7 doesn't make you easier to hit in close combat, if your close combat TN is 5 + 3 levels of Fightin' +2 from your weapons DB = TN 10. The passive defense is the Fightin' aptitude and the weapons DB, which both add to the base TN of 5. Any Vamoosin' would not lead to a worse result than the already successful hit against TN 10.

On going bust, I could understand that the character might just have walked into the attackt, but a normal failure on Vamoosin' is not supposed to worsen the result of the attack.

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#7 Postby ValhallaGH » Sat Jul 23, 2011 4:29 pm

Cable Hogue wrote:I'll ad my question to this topic just to be able to clearly understand, how Vamoosin' is meant to be applied.

Dodgin' vs. Shootin'
...
Do I understand Vamoosin' of ranged attacks correctly?

Not quite. The -3 from range doesn't affect the TN to hit. The shooter has a TN of 5, and a penalty of -9 on his attack. He rolls a 15 on the dice, -9 means a total of 6.
The TN to successfully Dodge is 7. On a 7 or better, the hero gets out of the way and the shot misses. On a 6 or less, the hero gets hit as normal.

Cable Hogue wrote:Fightin' vs. Fightin'
...
Please help me clear this mess of (mis-)understanding up!

The total on the attack was 11 (17 - 6 = 11). If the vamoosin' roll is 11 or less then the character is hit, as normal. If the vamoosin' roll is a 12 or higher (beats the attacker's total) then the attack is avoided and your noggin' is safe.

Cable Hogue wrote:I thought Vamoosin' never lets you end with a worse TN to hit you than your passive defense.

Depends on which version of the Classic rules you're using. Up through Hell On Earth (the original Weird West stuff and Hell on Earth) your vamoosin' roll completely reset the TN to hit you, including calculation of raises on the attack. It was possible to dodge into a bullet, or otherwise make an attack worse by Vamoosin'.

In the revised printing of the Weird West, they removed that rule. Probably for speed of play, ease of learning, and general fun.
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#8 Postby Cable Hogue » Sat Jul 23, 2011 4:49 pm

ValhallaGH wrote:Not quite. The -3 from range doesn't affect the TN to hit. The shooter has a TN of 5, and a penalty of -9 on his attack. He rolls a 15 on the dice, -9 means a total of 6.
My HoE corebook says otherwise:
The Target Number you’re looking for is
Fair (5) plus the range modifier. To figure
the modifier, count the number of yards
between the shooter and the target, then
divide it by the weapon’s Range Increment,
rounding down as usual. The number you
get is added to Fair (5) to get the base TN.

After the HoE-corebook the base TN is 5 + range modifiers.

Range modifiers are not subtracted from the Shootin' roll, but added to the TN.

This makes a difference regarding dodging.

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#9 Postby ValhallaGH » Sun Jul 24, 2011 12:42 pm

You're correct. That's what I get for skipping sections. :|

The TN to shoot is 5 + Range. So, when dodging ranged attacks, the Dodge roll replaces that base TN (if better).
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#10 Postby Zombi Bobb » Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:12 pm

I never liked that Fightin' was added to passive defense for close-combat. I house-rule that out. Defensive bonus for weapons adds in, but otherwise close combat works like ranged combat.

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#11 Postby ValhallaGH » Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:30 am

Zombi Bobb wrote:I never liked that Fightin' was added to passive defense for close-combat. I house-rule that out. Defensive bonus for weapons adds in, but otherwise close combat works like ranged combat.

That makes Berserk a much stronger edge.
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#12 Postby Zombi Bobb » Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:51 pm

I don't recall that Edge in classic.

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#13 Postby Cable Hogue » Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:24 pm

Berserk is an Edge found in "The Wasted West", the settingbook-companion to the HoE corerules using DL Classic system..

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#14 Postby Zombi Bobb » Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:56 pm

I looked it up. Yeah, it does make it a stronger edge, but I'm okay with it. I personally still wouldn't take it even if I was making a melee character.

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#15 Postby SilasWrathStrike » Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:11 pm

Is Berzerk where you deal more damage based on how many wounds you have?

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#16 Postby Cable Hogue » Tue Jul 26, 2011 5:54 am

No. - Berserk is, where you make TWO close combat attacks per action card after you have been wounded and failed your Smarts roll. The drawback is, that you lose the TN-adjustment by your Aptitude level in Fightin' and the DB of your weapon (if any), so that you're easier to hit (TN 5).


More damage is the Don't get'em riled Edge.

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#17 Postby ValhallaGH » Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:00 am

Zombi Bobb wrote:I looked it up. Yeah, it does make it a stronger edge, but I'm okay with it. I personally still wouldn't take it even if I was making a melee character.

I would. The loss of Defense was the killer downside to Berserk - the close combat and limited ranged abilities were rough but not overly dissuading. The defense loss, however, would get your waster killed.

By removing most of the defense loss, you've just made this into the greatest Martial Artist / Templar / Anti-Templar edge of all time. Two attacks per card, for free - three if you're a two-fisted fighter with appropriate edges. 4d12 (strength) +2d8 (sword) three times a round is going to kill a lot of stuff, especially for only two (2) edge points.
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#18 Postby Zombi Bobb » Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:27 pm

Auto-rush is still a big enough drawback in my opinion, not to mention already being wounded (yes, you can take thick-skinned and lessen the penalty but now you're building a specific kind of character, in which case, I'm still okay with it). In my experience it really is just going to make that character the primary bullet-catcher.

The level being added into defense just doesn't match the rest of the system to me. It's the only skill that is added to a TN. That bonus alone makes it a skill worth putting points in, even if you're not making a melee character. The reasoning for the bonus should also apply to Dodge, and that'd just be combat. Why wouldn't Scrutinize add to the TN to lie to someone, or Guts for intimidation, or most any other opposed roll? And if you go that way, all the numbers become too high for most challenges. I find it easier to just house-rule out the bonus than stop having fun when my melee guy clears a room of ten baddies without ever having a concern for failure.

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#19 Postby Cable Hogue » Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:17 am

Zombi Bobb wrote:The reasoning for the bonus should also apply to Dodge, and that'd just be combat.
It could be argued, that Shooting gets already quite a lot of modifiers (range, cover, bad light conditions, hip-shooting, ...) making a shot vs. a flat TN 5 a rare case. - Adding the aptitude level in Dodge of the target to the TN would make a hit even less likely.

Fighting gets - compared to Shooting - less modifiers, if not for the inclusion of the opponent's Fighting aptitude level in the TN.

I suppose it's a "game thing", that both attack forms - ranged and close combat - will be rolled against similar span of TN values. - Would it be otherwise, would Shooting become much easier to score a hit or would Fighting be the method to get more hits vs. lower TN, then there would be an imbalance favoring either the shooters or the fighters.

Basically, by removing the inclusion of Fighting aptitude level into the TN in close combat, you are doing just that: you favor the fighters, making it easier for them to score a hit. If you'd drop the range modifier for Shooting, it might balance out a bit, but else it seems not like a fair deal for the shooters in the game.

Zombi Bobb wrote:Why wouldn't Scrutinize add to the TN to lie to someone, or Guts for intimidation, or most any other opposed roll? And if you go that way, all the numbers become too high for most challenges.
The "solution" would be: Make ALL Fighting rolls Opposed Rolls. - Not "pseudo-opposed" like in Vamoosin', but really every attack roll opposed by a fighting roll (the DB of the weapon is a modifier to the result of the opponents fighting roll for defense).

Benefit:
Opposed Rolls have always TN 5, so if the attack is less than that, it is a clear miss.
You could spend Fate Chips on a defense roll, if your result was not satisfying.
The Vamoosin' mechanic could be completely dropped (at least for fighing attacks), because every attack gets a reaction in the form of a fighting roll. (Much like resisting several Overawe attempts in a round by Guts rolls.)
The system by the book makes no difference, whether the defender has 3d12 or 3d4 in Fighting, he adds +3 to the base TN of 5 when attacked by Fighting. Opposed Rolls clearly take into account that 3d4 are much less likely to resist the same attack roll than 3d12.

Drawback:
In combat scenes there are A LOT of Fighing rolls involved. They take long enough figuring out vs. a fixed TN, but having each and every one an Opposed Roll draws out the resolution of a round quite significantly.
Unimportant characters you'd never want to make opposed fighting rolls for - so as a Marshal's Shortcut you'd simply add their aptitude level to the base TN 5 and have no opposed roll. (This is the current state of fighting rule by the book.)


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