Why is running a die roll?

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Vinzent
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Why is running a die roll?

#1 Postby Vinzent » Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:57 pm

I'm curious. Most games I've played, it's usually double or triple pace.

Some of my players get frustrated if they roll a 1 on the d6 but still have to use a full action for it.

How seriously would it screw things up if I just gave "full die" value for run.

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#2 Postby HaraldKlak » Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:20 pm

I like the dice rolls because it gives a mechanic for chasing eachother on foot. But you could choose only to roll dice in that instance.

Where it really matters is in combat, where it would make melee characters better. Ranged characters might be a bit nerfed, when meleeists can cover the range in shorter time. It's a balance issue that depends a lot on your playstyle. (In my group we don't use miniatures and range is somewhat arbitrary).

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Re: Why is running a die roll?

#3 Postby ron blessing » Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:45 pm

Vinzent wrote:I'm curious. Most games I've played, it's usually double or triple pace.

Some of my players get frustrated if they roll a 1 on the d6 but still have to use a full action for it.

How seriously would it screw things up if I just gave "full die" value for run.


It wouldn't screw thing up at all. Many groups do it. That said, the randomizer is there to simulate conditions of the battlefield. So if you roll low, maybe you bumped into somebody or had to push past a table.

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#4 Postby Cryonic » Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:48 pm

The nice thing about the die roll is that it allows one to deal with the vagaries of terrain vs movement. It also makes combat slightly less predictable, just like the use of cards for initiative.

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#5 Postby The Angle » Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:51 pm

Rather than making it a flat +6, consider giving them a choice: they can take a flat +3, or they can roll the die and take what comes up. Or, for less randomness, forget the d6 and make the bonus 1d3 + (Agil/2).

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#6 Postby Lord Inar » Mon Mar 15, 2010 6:44 pm

I use 2d4 and 2d6 for fleetfooted myself.

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#7 Postby Lysander » Mon Mar 15, 2010 7:11 pm

I've seen others here also support an idea of using a d4+2 to give a 3-6 range for the standard running die...
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#8 Postby chugosh » Mon Mar 15, 2010 7:39 pm

I think it reflects well the randomness of combat situations. Like you go to run and your timing is off, or you suddenly find the way ahead clear. there's always more obstacles in your way than you think.

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#9 Postby shadd4d » Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:59 pm

It's for randomness. Note that there's not pace penalty to diving for cover or going prone after moving 7".
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#10 Postby serene_muse » Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:12 pm

Reminds me of skirmish miniature games where you can move normally or "push" (force march, run etc.) with the extra distance being the die roll. So you might make it to the trench, or get stranded in No Man's Land or overshoot and land past it.

I like it, but I like miniature wargames that have that. A flat bonus or multiplier'd be ok if you don't want the extra randomness.

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#11 Postby Cryonic » Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:40 am

How do you go past it? if you roll higher than the distance needed, you should be able to just stop at the objective you were after.

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#12 Postby Magnus » Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:13 pm

Cryonic wrote:How do you go past it? if you roll higher than the distance needed, you should be able to just stop at the objective you were after.


Sure, you can move "up to" your pace, stopping is not a problem - though it might be fun if you played with a rule like that...

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#13 Postby Jordan Peacock » Tue Mar 16, 2010 12:43 pm

One of the first "accidental house rules" I started off with was to just assume that running is double movement, especially since enough running happens that I'd rather not have yet another die-roll exercise when when all we're doing is moving. I understand the rationale for the die roll aspect, so that there's some uncertainty, and that people don't just coldly calculate, "I can end my move here, and he can't reach me AND attack on his next turn - and then I'll attack next" ... though randomized initiative helps to deal with this as well.

There are some cases where I have used the "Run Die" as a sort of derived pseudo-skill, just to handle - in abstract - situations involving dashing to get to something in time. There, it's NOT used to determine movement; it's for situations where I don't have miniatures on the table and I want a quick and abstract way to handle the competition. Most everyone has the same d6, but occasionally there'll be someone with Lame or Fleet Footed, and I apply encumbrance penalties to the check. The easy solution would be to just call it "Agility," but I use that more for raw, split-second reflex situations.

Thus, it's not entirely irrelevant even with my normal treatment of running. Also, Edges such as Fleet Footed or Lame come into play even during parts of the game where we're not bothering with miniatures or exact measurements.
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#14 Postby Clint » Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:03 pm

Mechanics-wise, it's quick. Roll one die and add to the base Pace. Plus, the totals are important too. Movement is a "defense" against ranged attacks in a way, enabling a character to move into a farther range increment or into close combat. Note that a typical character has a maximum run of 12", and the Short Range for most weapons is at least 12" as well. So most characters can't run and even get lucky to get out of Short Range in one round if they were in close combat with a foe.

Simulation-wise, when running in combat, a character's movement isn't always 100% under their control; there are multiple variables that can alter the situation.

Game-wise, it simply adds to the fun. The only absolute to running is +1"; anything more is up to chance and creates dramatic tension when the roll succeeds or fails. And generally when a character needs to run in a combat, it is a dramatic situation (I need to get there now!), and the more static the result the less tension in the situation.
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#15 Postby inlife9 » Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:06 pm

I have always hated the solid number run. It made me feel cheap. The random d6 in SWEX helps paint the imperfect world. roll a 1 maybe your shoulder slammed the door when you were running out, or you cam down on the side of your foot. All these are very real & normal things that happen when running, for fun. It is not a stretch to think when bullets are fly around you, that you would not be the perfect swan your "certain other game" said you were. :eek:
Then again when I gm I do atally interpret the run dice as it fits.

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#16 Postby Cursed » Thu Mar 18, 2010 11:58 pm

How about using different dice for different conditions? On hard/chaotic environment/situation use official method, for track conditions use 1d2+4 and for everything else, use suggested 1d4+2?

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#17 Postby serene_muse » Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:48 am

Cryonic wrote:How do you go past it? if you roll higher than the distance needed, you should be able to just stop at the objective you were after.


If you like, but I also like a bit of chaos when pushing it. I've been influenced by games like The Sword and the Flame (a classic colonial skirmish game modded to tons of other periods) to the heresy of Piquet and more. Incidentally both games use playing cards in varying degrees. IIRC most of the Games Workshop games have a similar push or at least heavy weapon randomness.

Exp., say a trench is 10 yards away. You normally move 6 yards, which isn't going to be enough, and you're not really sure how far it is anyway, so when you make a dash for it under fire you might have to keep moving to avoid getting hit, or a hail mary dive, or find out that "smooth even" ground ahead wasn't so smooth and don't get as far in X amount of time and so forth.

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Larry Brom wrote:Measured move distances are probably the strangest aspect of gaming rules that we have ever embraced. The idea that two armies or forces on any given table top would always all move at exact precise distances is, and always has been, incredible to me. I won't even address historic justification that this is a fantasy, but merely put the issue into the framework of wargaming. Of course, control freaks love measured distances. It is absolutely wonderful during a game to have enemy cavalry on your flank and by firing a battery at them (you had to measure the range, of course) you know they are 48" away. Since they are cavalry in line and move 12", you smugly know that you have 4 turns to prepare for their attempt at outflanking you. What an exciting challenge! No risk, no drama, and it's a piece of cake. But not for me! I did, and still do, favor some form of random move distances in all the games I design and play to offset this artificial concept.

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#18 Postby serene_muse » Fri Mar 19, 2010 1:49 am

Cursed wrote:How about using different dice for different conditions? On hard/chaotic environment/situation use official method, for track conditions use 1d2+4 and for everything else, use suggested 1d4+2?


I've seen such in various skirmish games. If you don't mind the extra rules and switching dice varying dice should be ok. However I'd say every movement in combat unless you're farrrr away would be chaotic. :twisted: So just say rough / easy ground.

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#19 Postby Cryonic » Fri Mar 19, 2010 2:51 am

serene_muse wrote:
Cryonic wrote:How do you go past it? if you roll higher than the distance needed, you should be able to just stop at the objective you were after.


If you like, but I also like a bit of chaos when pushing it. I've been influenced by games like The Sword and the Flame (a classic colonial skirmish game modded to tons of other periods) to the heresy of Piquet and more. Incidentally both games use playing cards in varying degrees. IIRC most of the Games Workshop games have a similar push or at least heavy weapon randomness.

Exp., say a trench is 10 yards away. You normally move 6 yards, which isn't going to be enough, and you're not really sure how far it is anyway, so when you make a dash for it under fire you might have to keep moving to avoid getting hit, or a hail mary dive, or find out that "smooth even" ground ahead wasn't so smooth and don't get as far in X amount of time and so forth.

From The Birth of Some Rules
Larry Brom wrote:Measured move distances are probably the strangest aspect of gaming rules that we have ever embraced. The idea that two armies or forces on any given table top would always all move at exact precise distances is, and always has been, incredible to me. I won't even address historic justification that this is a fantasy, but merely put the issue into the framework of wargaming. Of course, control freaks love measured distances. It is absolutely wonderful during a game to have enemy cavalry on your flank and by firing a battery at them (you had to measure the range, of course) you know they are 48" away. Since they are cavalry in line and move 12", you smugly know that you have 4 turns to prepare for their attempt at outflanking you. What an exciting challenge! No risk, no drama, and it's a piece of cake. But not for me! I did, and still do, favor some form of random move distances in all the games I design and play to offset this artificial concept.


Not sure what this has to do with my statement of movement greater than what was needed can be left unused (e.g. you rolled to get 9" of movement and only needed 8 to get to your objective, then you stop at 8).

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#20 Postby serene_muse » Fri Mar 19, 2010 9:09 am

It's why I don't mind randomness, which includes *not* stopping before the distance rolled and possible ways to depict it and in general a non-fixed movement rate.

tl;dr it's how "you get past it"


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