Player-Facing Rolls in SW

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Clint
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Player-Facing Rolls in SW

#1 Postby Clint » Tue Jan 12, 2010 4:10 pm

Just because I took someone's blog post as a personal challenge. ;)

Player-Facing means the players make the combat rolls in the game where the GM just sets the target and goes (mostly) dice-free.

In SW, this would mean that players attack as normal, but they no longer have a Parry or Toughness value. Instead, NPCs have an Attack (Melee/Range) and Damage ratings against which PCs roll Defense and Resistance rolls. Modifiers to Parry and Toughness are now applied as bonuses or penalties to the appropriate rolls.

When an NPC attacks a player, the player rolls their Defense against the appropriate Attack Value; Fighting vs. Melee and Agility vs. Range.

Critical Failure - Roll Vigor at -4 vs. Damage
Failure - Roll Vigor vs. Damage
Success - Roll Vigor at +4 vs. Damage
Raise - Avoid the attack entirely

When rolling Resistance (Vigor vs. Damage) the effects are...

Raise - No effect
Success - Shaken
Failure - 1 wound
Every 4 points less = +1 wound
Critical Failure = Incapacitation

Figuring Attack and Damage values...

Attack (Melee) = 2 + Fighting/2 (+2 for Wild Cards)
Attack (Range) = 2 + Shooting or Throwing/2 (+2 for Wild Cards)

Damage = Total dice of attack/2
[Ex. 3d6 = (3x6)/2 and thus Damage: 9]

Modifiers: Flat modifiers apply to Attack and Damage normally. For instance, a group of 3 Extras with an Attack (Melee) of 6 with Gang Up would have +2 for an Attack of 8. Or a Double Tap would increase Attack (Ranged) and Damage for that attack by +1.

Other Changes: A benny can still be spent to automatically remove a Shaken, but there are no more Soak rolls since the Vigor roll vs. Damage already fills that effect and a benny could be spent to reroll there.

The Full Defense manuever is also unneeded since that effect is also standard.

In the standard, Heroic game, Resistance rolls are unique because wound penalties do not apply to them (decreasing the death spiral effect), but in a Gritty game, the GM might have them applied (the GM may also rule that Hard to Kill allows a character to ignore wound penalties for Resistance rolls).

GM bennies now work as Bizarro-Bennies; the GM can spend them to remove a Shaken as normal or to force a player to reroll a Trait roll and take the worse result. A player may spend a benny of their own to counter a Bizarro-Benny spent by the GM to force them to reroll (Common Bond allows spending bennies for others as listed).


So to give an example of an NPC from the core rulebook, an Ogre might have the combat stats...

Ogre
Attack (Melee): 6
Damage (Club): 13
Parry: 6
Toughness: 11 (1)

For opposed rolls, the GM uses the same formula for Attack with the appropriate Trait to determine the TN. For instance, if an Extra has an Agility of d6 and a character wants to interrupt them, they have to roll against a 5. If it was a Wild Card, it would be an 7.
Last edited by Clint on Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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#2 Postby ron blessing » Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:08 pm

If I were played by George C. Scott, I might say, "Clint, you magnificent bastard!"

I may need to test this out soon.

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#3 Postby skylion » Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:30 pm

I'm setting about to bring Rocketship Empires 1936 to SW, and this looks like a great way to do some seriously crazy pulp style combat. Gonna see if the players will groove on it.
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#4 Postby J Gregory » Sat Jan 30, 2010 2:10 am

Am I reading this wrong, or does this take away the possibility for enemies to get one-hit-kills via acing damage rolls? Does it take the possible benefits of acing away from the attacker and give them to the defender (acing defense rolls)?

Interesting idea - I just want to be clear.
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#5 Postby Enno » Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:34 am

Nice idea. But looks to me as it slows the process of combat dramatically down, because all rolls are resistance rolls now, and none is against flat values as before.

Nice idea to think about, but purely academical.
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#6 Postby Clint » Sat Jan 30, 2010 12:41 pm

J Gregory wrote:Am I reading this wrong, or does this take away the possibility for enemies to get one-hit-kills via acing damage rolls? Does it take the possible benefits of acing away from the attacker and give them to the defender (acing defense rolls)?


Note that a critical failure on a Resistance roll results in automatic Incapacitation which emulates the possibility for a damage roll to ace and result in a "one-hit-kill."

Enno wrote:Nice idea. But looks to me as it slows the process of combat dramatically down, because all rolls are resistance rolls now, and none is against flat values as before.


Not sure I understand; all of the rolls are against flat values with this variant.
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#7 Postby Enno » Sat Jan 30, 2010 8:30 pm

Which has to be rolled out before. It has to be rolled each round, and each attack? Not against Parry or TN 4 as in the core rules.

But maybe i didn't understood your mechanics correctly...
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#8 Postby Clint » Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:27 am

Enno wrote:Which has to be rolled out before. It has to be rolled each round, and each attack? Not against Parry or TN 4 as in the core rules.

But maybe i didn't understood your mechanics correctly...


Sounds like you are reading it as Opposed Rolls when the discussion is about Player Facing rolls, where the players make all (or most) of the die rolls and the GM just sets a static TN for them to roll against (which would be in the opponent's stats as listed for the Ogre example).

What this means is that players still attack using the same current rules, but when they are attacked in return, their opponents do not roll at all; instead the players roll Defense vs. the Attack Value TN and then possibly Resistance vs. their Damage Value TN.

At no point does the GM roll a single die in this exchange. In fact, the number of die rolls would remain the same where the Defense roll of the player replaces the attack roll of the NPC and the Resistance roll of the player replaces the damage roll for any hits.

Hope that clears it up.
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#9 Postby The Angle » Mon Feb 01, 2010 12:00 pm

As something to play, I don't think I'd enjoy it as either a player or a GM. As an exercise in game design, however, I say "well done."

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#10 Postby skylion » Tue Feb 02, 2010 9:30 am

Wait....I don't have to roll dice?

When did rolling dice become something anyone would ever want to get rid off?

Not rolling dice?

My head is currently exploding. [/i]
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#11 Postby Clint » Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:42 am

The Angle wrote:As something to play, I don't think I'd enjoy it as either a player or a GM. As an exercise in game design, however, I say "well done."


Thanks, Steve!

Yeah, I didn't post the original reference, but the "challenge" I spoke of came from Ran's blog in this post if anyone wants to check it out...

http://ronblessing.blogspot.com/2010/01/player-facing-rolls.html
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#12 Postby Chezzo » Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:10 pm

But, what happens when a player attacks an NPC? Is it just like it is now?

If it isn't, the GM has to roll the same Defense and Resistance rolls.

If it is, the GM still has to roll to soak and roll on the incapacitation table - which granted, only happen if an NPC gets wounded.

Unless there is something I am totally missing.

GM bennies now work as Bizarro-Bennies; the GM can spend them to remove a Shaken as normal or to force a player to reroll a Trait roll and take the worse result. A player may spend a benny of their own to counter a Bizarro-Benny spent by the GM to force them to reroll.


I thought GM bennies could always work like that. Are you saying that is pretty much the only role that GM bennies have, 'cause the GM ain't rollin the bones?

I heard a tale round the table of a GM wanting to Puppet someone, and between the two of them they spent eleven bennies.

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#13 Postby Clint » Tue Feb 02, 2010 12:38 pm

Chezzo wrote:But, what happens when a player attacks an NPC? Is it just like it is now?


Yep, as stated, player attacks work as normal.

Chezzo wrote:If it is, the GM still has to roll to soak and roll on the incapacitation table - which granted, only happen if an NPC gets wounded.

Unless there is something I am totally missing.


Well, as I said above...

Clint wrote:...the GM just sets the target and goes (mostly) dice-free.


But Soaking and Incapacitation only really come up with Wild Cards (though an Extra could Soak), so it's not a lot. And even then Soaking is needed anymore (and as noted isn't used) since the GM can spend a Benny to force a player to reroll a Trait roll, so instead of "Soaking," he can force a player to reroll a successful attack for a worse result possibly avoiding the damage (or a raise on damage) entirely.

Heck, it's easy enough to add an NPC ability or rule like No Mercy in reverse where the GM can instead spend a Benny to make a player reroll Damage rolls, which would directly supplant Soaks.

Then it's only a matter of rolling for Incapacitation when that occurs to a Wild Card.

GM bennies now work as Bizarro-Bennies; the GM can spend them to remove a Shaken as normal or to force a player to reroll a Trait roll and take the worse result. A player may spend a benny of their own to counter a Bizarro-Benny spent by the GM to force them to reroll.


I thought GM bennies could always work like that. Are you saying that is pretty much the only role that GM bennies have, 'cause the GM ain't rollin the bones?[/quote]

No, there is nothing in the core rules where the GM can spend a benny to force a player to reroll a Trait roll for the worse effect nor where the player can spend a benny to directly counter the GM spending one.

Chezzo wrote:I heard a tale round the table of a GM wanting to Puppet someone, and between the two of them they spent eleven bennies.


Ah, Puppet works by an Opposed roll, so it sounds like the GM spent his bennies for a high result by rerolling his roll, and then the player spent bennies in an attempt to overcome it by rerolling his own opposed roll.
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#14 Postby curiousParticle » Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:41 am

Thank you very much Clint.

I think this is a great idea. I was trying to put something together myself, but did not have enough experience with the system. It is strange that people are being so resistant to it. My goal as a GM is off load as much work as possible to the players, which this helps. Also this makes it much more fun for the players, who rather than having to sit there and wait while the GM rolls their fate, get the rolls placed back in there lap.

Many systems, like GURPS have defense rolls already, but I always felt that there was no need to have both the GM and players roll as GURPS does. Aren't the dice just there to simulate luck? Though both the attacker and the defender are testing their luck in an attack, it always felt to me that you could just simulate that as one roll, as savage worlds does it. And as you have shown, you can give all of those rolls to the character, thus increase the players enjoyment and their sense of agency.

I think this is a brilliant idea and I wonder if anyone has actually used it and what their thoughts are on it. I for one will be using it and will try to post my thoughts after using it for several sessions.

Thanks Clint.

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#15 Postby Snate56 » Fri Feb 18, 2011 7:39 am

We're resistant to it precisly because we are familiar with the system. :lol:

Great idea, but I like rolling dice. :wink:



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#16 Postby Zadmar » Fri Feb 18, 2011 8:57 am

I really like this idea - I probably wouldn't use it for Wild Cards, but it'd be interesting to try it for Extras. The number of rolls may be the same, but (as GM) I find one of the things that bogs down large combats is that I'm frequently switching between dice as I roll for different groups of opponents.

With this approach I could write out some cards for each NPC with their TNs on it, and just hand them out as players get attacked - allowing each player to simultaneously resolve (and describe) attacks made against them for the round, using their own fighting dice.

Shooting is normally against a TN of 4, so I assume players would always roll a d6 to avoid being hit by gunfire?

As an aside, this would also be superb for people running GMless games, as players wouldn't need to "roll for the bad guys" - everyone would just be rolling for themselves.

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#17 Postby Snate56 » Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:46 pm

Yeah, I saw the GMless possibility too. But another thing I was thinking is the players are "stuck" with the roll, for better or worse. Now I know most of us (GMs) roll openly anyway, but it does preclude any fudging the GM might want to insert. (Perhaps to save the party's lives? :eek: )


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#18 Postby curiousParticle » Sun Feb 20, 2011 7:21 pm

I think that most of my goal is exactly the idea that I like rolling dice. But as a GM, I get to roll many more times than your average player. Often I am rolling as often as each player combined, (for combat), then plus all of the other rolls behind the screen. But my players like rolling dice too. I like this idea because it balances the dice rolling a bit.

But, as pointed out,

Snate56 wrote:But another thing I was thinking is the players are "stuck" with the roll, for better or worse. Now I know most of us (GMs) roll openly anyway, but it does preclude any fudging the GM might want to insert. (Perhaps to save the party's lives? :eek: )


This is a problem that I had not thought of, and is frankly, going to strangely make combat a little more exciting even for me. I guess when I was rolling, I always knew that you could fudge a roll if you needed to. But now, well, it is going to be a bit more interesting.

Thanks for the point Steve and thanks again Clint.

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#19 Postby Drue » Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:51 pm

necro-thread arise!

Has anyone tried this system at the table?

My players love the big fights with bunches of mooks, extras, and henchfolk, but things can bog down when I'm rolling for dozens of mobs. Considering trying this system on this Saturday's game.

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#20 Postby chatterbox » Fri Aug 16, 2013 3:12 pm

This is a neat idea! Not sure if we'll go with it for my game, but I'd like to try it out sometime.

Actually, I might steal the "figuring attack and damage values" formula to set static TNs for players to roll against instead of using opposed rolls. Might work well for some Notice vs Stealth or maybe to calculate a Persuasion difficulty.


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