Rubber Bullets

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Sean Patrick Fannon
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Rubber Bullets

#1 Postby Sean Patrick Fannon » Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:14 pm

Has anyone come up with any decent rules regarding rubber bullets?

My basic take is to have them do the same damage as regular (removing any AP elements), and treat the damage as non-lethal.

Any differing thoughts here?
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#2 Postby IamDGMartin » Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:18 pm

I might add a knock back/knock down with rubber bullets due to the bullets not penetrating the target.
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#3 Postby VonDan » Fri Oct 02, 2009 1:31 pm

In reality they are less than lethal not Non lethal, people still get killed and maimed by them. On a critical failurer they should wound.

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#4 Postby FoxBlue » Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:13 pm

Sounds good to me. I like the idea of there being a chance for them to do lethal damage. I'm not sure critical failure would be the way to do it. Would it replace or be in addition to the innocent bystander rule? Maybe hitting with a raise causes lethal damage (if you are aiming for non lethal with these things a well placed shot is NOT what you want). Also I'd make called shot to vitals or the head lethal (naturally). It might make sense to reduce the damage slightly as well.

Those are just my ideas...

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#5 Postby Sean Patrick Fannon » Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:32 pm

My current FFF fix is to use the same damage as the regular caliber; drop a 1/4 off the range (12/24/48 goes to 8/16/32); take away all AP.

With any two Aces rolled on damage rolls, the damage converts to Lethal. Not a high chance, but it represents that "oops" factor pretty well.

For example, a guy rolls 2d6 and gets a 6 and a 4. He's good for now. He rerolls the 6 and gets another 6; NOW he's in trouble as the damage goes Lethal.
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#6 Postby Tavis » Fri Oct 02, 2009 4:53 pm

Why not link it to the amount of 'wounds' caused.

Have the rubber bullets cause fatigue damage - but rather than hitting incapacitated after two levels of fatigue, start causing wounds instead.

Two 'wounds' rolled = two levels of fatigue. Three 'wounds' rolled = two levels of fatigue and one 'real' wound. These could be soaked as normal.

This means that tougher characters are less likely to take lethal damage, and that 'smaller caliber' weapons (those with a lower die type for damage) are less likely to cause lethal damage than larger (which Sean's aces rule would have occur the other way around)
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#7 Postby Bill » Fri Oct 02, 2009 5:10 pm

Well I just have the bullets do non-lethal damage unless the exact number to hit, without aiming, is rolled. If a 4 (after all modifiers) is rolled and it was not a called or aimed shot the damage is lethal (hit a sensitive spot). Aimed shots are non-lethal. Called shots can be non-lethal or lethal depending on shooters desire (he took the penalty, if he hit it should be what he wants).
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#8 Postby jpk » Fri Oct 02, 2009 5:57 pm

Von's right: they aren't really nonlethal. I think I'd make the damage lethal if there were two aces on the damage, whether on two different dice or one acing twice. After all, aces generally represent exceptionally damaging hits or strikes to the most vital of spots, so it would make sense they be the ones that go lethal.

Von's idea probably has more merit in the spirit of things. Since you were hoping to be nonlethal, a critical failure acts directly against your hopes...

[Huh. Freaky server lag. When I just posted this, Von's was the last message in the thread on my screen. Weird.]

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#9 Postby ron blessing » Fri Oct 02, 2009 8:06 pm

I say keep it FFF and call them non-lethal, period. In the movies, they're non-lethal. It's a cinematic game. Just go with that. It's the FFF way.

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#10 Postby Clint » Fri Oct 02, 2009 8:29 pm

Ron Blessing wrote:I say keep it FFF and call them non-lethal, period. In the movies, they're non-lethal. It's a cinematic game. Just go with that. It's the FFF way.


Or just use a variant of an existing rule, Innocent Bystander. Damage is nonlethal unless a 1 is rolled on the Shooting die and the attack still hits due to the Wild Die, then it's lethal. Better shooters are then less likely to accidentally do lethal damage.
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#11 Postby Sean Patrick Fannon » Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:27 pm

Clint wrote:
Ron Blessing wrote:I say keep it FFF and call them non-lethal, period. In the movies, they're non-lethal. It's a cinematic game. Just go with that. It's the FFF way.


Or just use a variant of an existing rule, Innocent Bystander. Damage is nonlethal unless a 1 is rolled on the Shooting die and the attack still hits due to the Wild Die, then it's lethal. Better shooters are then less likely to accidentally do lethal damage.


I understand what you are saying, Ron, but I don't want to encourage all of my players (in the setting in question) to just carry rubber bullets and go nuts because there's no real downside. That's why I need them to be less-than-optimal, only chosen for specific mission needs.

Clint, I like your idea, except for the conflict it might create with firing rubber bullets into melee. Still, that's not too hard to get around, I suppose.
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#12 Postby ron blessing » Sat Oct 03, 2009 8:51 pm

Sean Patrick Fannon wrote:
Clint wrote:
Ron Blessing wrote:I say keep it FFF and call them non-lethal, period. In the movies, they're non-lethal. It's a cinematic game. Just go with that. It's the FFF way.


Or just use a variant of an existing rule, Innocent Bystander. Damage is nonlethal unless a 1 is rolled on the Shooting die and the attack still hits due to the Wild Die, then it's lethal. Better shooters are then less likely to accidentally do lethal damage.


I understand what you are saying, Ron, but I don't want to encourage all of my players (in the setting in question) to just carry rubber bullets and go nuts because there's no real downside. That's why I need them to be less-than-optimal, only chosen for specific mission needs.

Clint, I like your idea, except for the conflict it might create with firing rubber bullets into melee. Still, that's not too hard to get around, I suppose.


I like Clint's idea too. Not better, mind you. Because both rules are right depending on setting. That said, I'd fire the players that would just load up on rubber bullets and "go nuts." :P

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#13 Postby gatharion » Sun Oct 04, 2009 3:09 am

What about just rolling damage like normal then halving the result?
Round down, no AP.
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#14 Postby ron blessing » Sun Oct 04, 2009 3:20 am

gatharion wrote:What about just rolling damage like normal then halving the result?
Round down, no AP.


The only issue here is that they really are mostly non-lethal, and if someone has a crazy damage roll, then oops! That would essentially be punishing the character for a good roll. Clint's way of using a variation on the Innocent Bystander rule, combined with making it nonlethal damage, is more consistent with calamity occurring in the game and, specifically, in Shooting.


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