Optional rules for damage.

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Zen-Gm
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Optional rules for damage.

#1 Postby Zen-Gm » Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:32 pm

Our group has been using the savage bullets home brew for our between games game for a while now. One optional rule we use with that setting I thought was worth posting.

Rather than just gaining a +1D6 damage on a fighting/shooting raise, no matter the number of raises we wanted the damage to scale a bit higher for really good shots. But at the same time we didn't want to go crazy with it and allow for a hand full of die to be rolled blowing wild cards up with pea shooters either. So we decided to allow for scaling of raises. On a single raise add +1D6, on two add +1d8, and on three add +1d10.

This rule seems to work well for the setting. making some combat more deadly while not changing the system a lot or making combat overly deadly.

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#2 Postby islan » Tue Feb 10, 2009 1:25 pm

There've been many versions of such a thing in the past, but the problem with granting extra benefits with more raises on attack rolls is that it might make called shots more worthless. I don't know if your method in particular does, but I'd recommend comparing/contrasting to see if called shots are still useful.

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#3 Postby Clint » Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:17 pm

It would be less devaluing to Called Shots than other versions I've seen (especially if it caps at d10, which could be inferred but may not be accurate).
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#4 Postby Zen-Gm » Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:28 pm

Didn't really consider how it effects called shots when applying it. Although I am not sure how it would. Since a called shot adds base damage.

For example a called shot to the head with a 9mm pistol would be 2d6+4, and 3d6+4 with a raise to shooting.

Our version (for savage bullets only) would be the same 2d6+4, and 3d6+4 with a raise to shooting. But with two raises it would be 2d6+1d8+4.
And three raises is 2d6+1d10+4.

since on a raise your adding 1d6 any way its just a matter of adding a different die based on the number of raises. so its no more work.

It is only adding a higher threat range since often the added die rolls with in the range of the original d6 any way. Just adds the possibility of a higher roll and higher damage on die aces.

we never really set a cap at d10. just no one has gotten more than that in a game so far lol. But its not a bad idea.

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#5 Postby marshal kt » Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:38 pm

my players complained when i dropped the multiple add-on for the new[er] +1d6 only rule.

the old rule gave no reason to a called shot.. they just had to hope they could roll high enough....

which is the reason i wanted to change.

they're were and are still too use to the D&D train of thought; you swing, i swing, sooner or later, we'll whittle it down. rather than using tactics, to hide behind tables, chairs, walls, trees. rathenr than movement to get out of the way..'whattya mean he hit me? when did he move up to me?"

that's 1 of the biggest things i like/love about sw.. it's a thinking game, not a minis game or an mmo clone.
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#6 Postby Clint » Tue Feb 10, 2009 2:53 pm

HANZO wrote:Didn't really consider how it effects called shots when applying it. Although I am not sure how it would. Since a called shot adds base damage.


Consider with a capped effect on raises, it can be logical to take a penalty increasing the chance of a complete miss in exchange for extra damage since a very high result has a limited benefit.

Without such a cap, it can be more advantageous to simply trust to luck for additional damage instead of taking the chance of a complete miss.

Basically, why take a -4 penalty and increase the chance of missing entirely for +4 damage when if you roll high enough anyway, you will get +1d8, +1d10, +1d12, etc... without reducing your chances of hitting at all.

So it devalues Called Shots since there is less reason to take a penalty for extra damage when every raise will provide extra damage automatically.

Like I said though, this doesn't devalue them as much as some other proposed versions (and less so if it were capped); in fact, that wouldn't even be my main issue not to use it myself (it'd be speed of play for me, but that's a preference thing).
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#7 Postby Zen-Gm » Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:02 pm

Yeah by no mean would is see it as a replacement to a called shot. To me a set +4 is way better the converting a die from d6 to d8 or even d10.

Because the die is only a chance to do better. Just increasing the range of possible damage. While the +4 from a called shot is a sure thing. and in my opinion bypasses armor if the area being called is not armored.

If im firing on a fully armored target with no helmet then my called shot has more of an impact than just adding dmg. it is avoiding the armor on the body all together.

Sure a well placed shot (multiple raises) will find a nitch in the armor and do more dmg. But the called shot is going to do way more dmg as the bonus is applied and a higher threat range from die rolled too.

This was an option for a gritty spray and prey setting of high action. We were going for more deadly. with out mowing players down.....too fast.
Its a john woo film meets the matirx style gun fights.

the setting has one edge just called "stunt" it requires a benny and makes you immune to every thing for a stunt all penalties (with in reason) or damage.

For example:
a player throws me a bennie and invokes a "stunt". The character suddenly steps from behind a car and into a hail of gunfire. at a full run lets loose with two mac-10s while using a parking meter to do a full flip over a car while laying down lead rain from above in mid flip. Although im going to require shooting rolls and an agility to land correctly there will be no penalties for moving and shooting, the flip its self or any other penalty. not even off hand or using two weapons for the action if the player does not have the right edges. He is also totally immune to incoming fire. Till he lands. then he is on his own. :blam:

So the option is the least of my worries as far as changing the rules lol.

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#8 Postby Judge Holden » Wed Feb 11, 2009 5:47 pm

The most compelling reason I find for not counting your raises on a to hit roll is that it slows things down exponentially, at least for our group. You hit with a raise? done, add an extra d6. "You hit with 27 and the guy has a parry of 8, thats ahhhh, uhmmmmm..... someone do the math for me?"

Admittedly we get fairly drunk during our sessions and I'm no math wiz, but for me I think the not counting raises was a great FFF decision.
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#9 Postby marshal kt » Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:20 pm

i made up a sheet that i put in one of the slots on the gm screen. it was numbered 1 thru.. hmmm anyway, it was set up that all you had to do was find the target number, then the number rolled and count the rows in between, each row was a raise.. so 4 rows between them, means 4 raises.
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#10 Postby islan » Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:42 pm

Judge Holden wrote:The most compelling reason I find for not counting your raises on a to hit roll is that it slows things down exponentially, at least for our group. You hit with a raise? done, add an extra d6. "You hit with 27 and the guy has a parry of 8, thats ahhhh, uhmmmmm..... someone do the math for me?"

Admittedly we get fairly drunk during our sessions and I'm no math wiz, but for me I think the not counting raises was a great FFF decision.


That's why I'm thinking of replacing Parry and Toughness with a modifier to the attack/damage rolls, rather than differing TN's. So instead of a character with 7 Parry, he has -3 against all melee attacks against him (denoted as 3 vs. Melee). This way attacks and damage rolls follow the same Raise ladder as everything else (4, 8, 12, 16, 20, etc).

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#11 Postby Clint » Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:47 am

islan wrote:That's why I'm thinking of replacing Parry and Toughness with a modifier to the attack/damage rolls, rather than differing TN's. So instead of a character with 7 Parry, he has -3 against all melee attacks against him (denoted as 3 vs. Melee). This way attacks and damage rolls follow the same Raise ladder as everything else (4, 8, 12, 16, 20, etc).


So are you adding some additional benefit for extra raises (as suggested here) that makes the change worthwhile?
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#12 Postby supercOntra » Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:57 am

We've used the same rule d6,d8,d10 for multiple raises and it works fine but then again there is a slightly longer time to check the raises table I've created
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#13 Postby Manowar » Sat Feb 14, 2009 3:25 pm

Here's a slightly different idea...

When you get a raise, the bonus damage die is the same as your Shooting/Fighting/Throwing skill. I haven't used this, but I thought I'd confuse the matter further. :-) No, it doesn't "scale up" the damage based upon the number of raises, but it does give further benefit to being more skilled.

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#14 Postby Zen-Gm » Wed Feb 25, 2009 10:56 am

The idea of using Shooting/Fighting/Throwing as the bonus damage die has come up too. Another idea was to make it an edge. A Basic edge giving a D8 rather than a d6. Then some improved Edge making the bonus damage die a D10. And not scaling. Maybe even separate edges for melee and ranged. Say a sniper edge for ranged and a martial art type edge for melee. just a thought.

The only application of this Iv used was once in a savage bullets game a player wanted a "bullet proof monk" style character. So he took a custom combat edge called "Shin Ru master". Making his bonus damage die from hand to hand raises a d8. With a fighting skill of d12 he was down right lethal. But in a game of flying bullets he needs to be to keep up.

If that player kept playing that character we could have made an improved edge called "shin Ru Grandmaster" upgrading again to a d10.

The more I think about it I like this option. Its a bit more limited to one attack type and takes an edge. Going to play around with this idea a bit more.


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