[HoE] "Flash Gordon" or "How to break this po

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ScooterinAB
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[HoE] "Flash Gordon" or "How to break this po

#1 Postby ScooterinAB » Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:29 am

As mentioned in my other thread (about Shelter), I come across something puzzling from time to time when building Junker devices. Another such puzzle is Flash Gordon. Specifically Ammo size.

I was building a Railgun the other day using Gunsmith, and say the bit about ammo not needing a propellant (which inadvertantly breaks Gunsmith even more that it already was, as a railgun is only slightly larger. But I digress). This got me wondering about Flash Gordon.

When building a Flash Gordon device, are you supposed to make the ammo propellant-less (thus making the ammo size smaller), or do you keep the propellant? On that note, are you also supposed to make it caseless?

Here's why. Logically, a Flash Gordon gun functions similarily to a Railgun. Flash Gordon's ammo is the spirit battery (or whatever), and thus logically would not need propellant or a case. The ammo size is onyl a calculation of power, as opposed to Gunsmith, where it is a calculation of size.

But here's the problem. Gunsmith and Flash Gordon are broken. Horribly horribly broken. For example, I one build a pistol with Range Inc 20, 5d6 damage, and 20 shots. I also stated out Jackie Wells' Gatling Pistol last night (as mentioned in Fortress o Fear adventure from WW), and it is only a bit bigger than a derringer. I won't even mention Flash Gordon. The point is, the powers are sick and overpowerful.

Assuiming that a Flash Gordon should be constructed with caseless and/or propellant-less ammo, this makes the power even more broken. You can make assault rifles with nigh-limitless ammo (we are talking hundred of shots worth of GR here), or Machine guns the size of SMG's or small rifles.

I should mention that the calculations for both Flash and Gunsmith are the same (how much it costs for speed, for example). So that doesn't show any sign of one way or the other.

What are people's thoughts? Is Flash Gordon supposed to be that broken and powerful? Or do Junkers get screwed by logic?

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Fuzyfeet
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Re: [HoE] "Flash Gordon" or "How to break thi

#2 Postby Fuzyfeet » Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:25 am

ScooterinAB wrote:When building a Flash Gordon device, are you supposed to make the ammo propellant-less (thus making the ammo size smaller), or do you keep the propellant? On that note, are you also supposed to make it caseless?


In the railgun entries it tells you to make sure to calculate the ammo propellantless. In Flash Gordon it does not. A typo, maybe, maybe not, but if it's not worded that way I'd go with normal size.

ScooterinAB wrote:For example, I one build a pistol with Range Inc 20, 5d6 damage, and 20 shots.


Here are the numbers I got (please correct me if they are not what you got):

Gunsmith:
Ammo 5d6 = .5 slots
ROF 1 = ammo x5 (2.5 slots)
Range 20 = ammo x8 (4 slots)
20 round clip = 2.5
20 internal magazine = 10
2.5 + 4 + 2.5 = 9 (Smallest Frame Size = 2 = Submachine-gun)
2.5 + 4 + 10 = 16.5 (Smallest Frame Size = 3 = Rifle)

Now with Flash Gordon (Beam Weapon):
Ammo 5d6 = .5 slots
ROF 1 = ammo x3 (1.5 slots)
Range 20 = ammo x8 (4 slots)
Powerpack (20 shots = 40 G-Rays) = 4
Spirit Battery (20 shots = 40 G-Rays) = 5
1.5 + 4 + 4 = 9.5 (Smallest Frame Size = 2 = Submachine-gun)
1.5 + 4 + 5 = 10.5 (Smallest Frame Size = 2 = Submachine-gun)
Drain = 1 (.5 x2 (bolt) x2 (range mod) = 2)

I also ran the numbers with FG if there was no propellant and the smallest I got was 4.75 which is still a Pistol, and a Derringer has 2 slots.

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#3 Postby ScooterinAB » Sun Jan 25, 2009 11:35 am

I forgot to mention that they were caseless, but that's about what I got.

EVen at 4.75 though, that's pretty small. Factoring what the weapon can do (20 shots, good damage, gross range inc), The power looks pretty broken to me. We already know one can make really dangerous Junker weapons with little effort. If FG is indeed propellantless, it jaust makes it even worse.

But still. Logic says that FG should be propellantless, which is just scary.

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#4 Postby johntfs » Mon Jan 26, 2009 2:44 am

But still. Logic says that FG should be propellantless, which is just scary.


Logic says to me that Ammo size shouldn't be a consideration here since you're not firing bullets. For my part, I think you should have to have the Flash Gordan device hooked up to some sort of continuous power source like a Reactor or Conventional generator. Essentially if you want this capability, you need to be wearing something out of Ghostbusters (the movie, not the module).

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#5 Postby Fuzyfeet » Mon Jan 26, 2009 5:03 am

If you wanted you could figure 2 slots is a Derringer, 3-4 would be a compact pistol, 5-6 a normal pistol and 7 Dirty Harry's best friend. Sci-fi movies run the range, and some of the old serials had then at about the compact pistol size. Again that is if you don't go by what is written 'as is'.

Don't use logic. The ammo calculations are for power. As it reads the weapon needs servos and doohickeys to make the thing work, so they take up the room the ammo (powder, cases and all) would in the weapon. Thus a FG device would end up being close to the same size as a Gunsmith device (in the example Submachine-gun sized).

Also remember that while you can shrink a weapon using caseless ammo, or even propellantless ammo, getting those ammos are harder than finding a clean place to sit in Junkyard.

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#6 Postby ScooterinAB » Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:08 am

johntfs wrote:For my part, I think you should have to have the Flash Gordan device hooked up to some sort of continuous power source like a Reactor or Conventional generator.


Ya. That's just be gross. The idea is generally to limit the amount of shots you have. Even a Cyborg with a Plasma Holdout and it's seemingly endless power will eventually have to stop firing. Reactor on a FGF device is just uncalled for... Although I now need to stat one just to see it on paper.

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#7 Postby Fuzyfeet » Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:15 am

I did this once, kinda. It was my Junker, Spike Witwicky's familiar; Megatron. Of course he had the extradimensional space and needed to be a minimum Frame 2 so he was a large gun/small robot that transformed into a gun. I gave him things like VTOL cuz in the cartoon Megatron sorda "flew" around/hovered in place shooting on his own some times. Here's the stats I came up with for Megatron just for fun:

Device Profile: Megatron
Frame: 2 (extradimensional slots = 45)
Flash Gordon:* 5d8, Burst Radius 1 yard, ROF 1, Range Increment 10 (Slots needed = 9, Drain/shot = 2)
Locomotion: Two Legs, 15 MPH Acceleration (Slots needed = 8 )
Reactor:* Size 2 (4 G-Rays per Round) (Slots needed = 24)
Sensor: Sight, Sound, Smell, Touch, Thermal and Low Light (Slots needed = 6)
VTOL:* 200 MPH max speed, 10 MPH acceleration, 0 handling (Slots used = 6, Drain = 4/hour)
Extras: Power Jack, *60-point powerpack (1 hour to recharge) (Slots needed = 8 )
Drain: 2/shot (Flash Gordon), 4/hour (VTOL)
Available Slots: 0 (extradimensional = 0)
Notes: The Reactor is set to 2% G-Ray output (.08/round, 1/minute or 58/hour). This will extend the Reactor's life to 182 years before he needs more Irradiated Ghost Rock. The G-Rays not used are vented if not channeled to a battery or powerpack. All powers/extras labeled with a (*) are added to the extra dimensional pocket, and needs power.

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#8 Postby Zombi Bobb » Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:07 am

Looking at Fuzyfeet's numbers I don't think that sounds overpowered at all. It is a gun about the size of a sub-machine gun. As a Marshal, I'd stat out a generic sub at range 15, rof 3, clip 15 (maybe more), damage 3d6. The junker gun above has slightly better range, slightly better damage, slightly better capacity, and a lower rate of fire.

I really don't think that's broken at all. As an arcane background, a junker should be able to make things at least as good, but more often than not better than most items available. Now include drawbacks like Stability, Taint, and a bit of sacrifice in char creation to make sure you have points to be proficient in your craft and this is more than fair.

What I figured Ammo size determined, in regards to Flash Gordon, was the bore of your barrel and size of diodes and doohickeys moving energy around in the gun. Even lasers need a hole to come out of.


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