Light manoeuvres / Heavy manoeuvres & Florentine Unarmed

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Lord Lance
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Light manoeuvres / Heavy manoeuvres & Florentine Unarmed

#1 Postby Lord Lance » Wed Jan 28, 2009 6:07 am

Hi guys!

I need your help. I'm preparing a Martial Arts Campaign, and the feature most wanted by my players is:

Can I throw light punches? Can I throw medium kicks? Can I throw heavy elbow smashes??

Of course, I don't want to make differentiations between punches / kicks and so on, but a fine tune of light/medium/heavy hits could be "in theme".

Medium manoeuvres are the standard fighting attacks.
Heavy attacks are the standard "wild attacks".
My dubs are on the light attacks, fast hits that have more chances to hit, but do less damage:
Maybe +2 to hit, like the touch attacks for the mages? maybe just +1?

Or another way to read them could be an attack without bonus to hit, but that expose less the attacker to a counterattack, so a +1 to Parry?

And about the damage? No chances to do raises? No Aces? Just a fixed modifier? Like heavy attacks do +2 damage, the lighter ones could do -2?

I need a balanced system for those light attacks, I don't want to twist the system upside down...
Last edited by Lord Lance on Wed Jan 28, 2009 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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#2 Postby Sadric » Wed Jan 28, 2009 7:11 am

Heavy attacks are wild attacks, this is clear.
Lets go with the standard rules, what could we use for the light attack.

What if you say a light attck is a trick. A trick is "something that dont hurt the foe but unbalance or confuse him somehow".
For example, a flurry of light punches, pulling some ears or lips, a jab on the nose, such things.

Lets say all light attacks are a contested Agility roll and go with the normal trick rules. You could even give some fighting styles a edge (or its symple part of the style, like the fencing schools) like Dirty Fighter or Akrobat, that gives a bonus on the Agility roll.

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#3 Postby Lord Lance » Wed Jan 28, 2009 8:52 am

Nice try, Sadric, but I think my players will start to mumble when I'll try to draw close the light attack with the agility trick...

Still searching a solution...

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#4 Postby Araknir » Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:25 am

Give them +1 to hit, but no extra damage dice if they score a raise.
Should emulate the quick, more precise, but less damaging attacks :D

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or perhaps...

#5 Postby DanOrc » Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:09 am

A +1 or a +2 to hit, extra d6 as normal on a raise, but no dice can ace on damage.

That would allow the mechanic of it being a more precise and targetted hit, getting the extra die of damage, but there's just not enough force behind it to do the potential 32 damage or some such that can happen with acing.
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#6 Postby Tuesday » Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:47 am

If you don't want to make it an "Agility" trick, then make it a Fighting trick - I roll Fighting, you roll Fighting, we contest, and the result is treated like any other Trick.

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#7 Postby Clint » Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:51 pm

Consider changing the scale...

A Light attack is a "normal" attack.
A Medium attack is a Wild Attack. (+2/+2; -2 Parry)
A Heavy attack is a Wild Attack Called Shot to the Vitals (-2/+6; -2 Parry)
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#8 Postby Lord Lance » Wed Jan 28, 2009 6:15 pm

Thanks Clint, but this is an escalating ladder of pain!! I know you try to keep all the situations "within main rules", but should be nice to hear a experienced comment about some ideas exposed previously, to create a lighter attack (or, am I wrong to keep thinking about a lighter attack!?).

Now i see that the first fighter winning the initiative could end the fight easily, if he can hit with a cool heavy punch in the vitals (or simply "at the head").
Almost every fighter in play will have "Unarmed Fighter" or "Improved Unarmed Fighter", so they do STR+d6 or STR+d8 damage, and there are no armors in play...
Maybe I'm wrong (I'll study the behavior of the system in the first combats) but I'm starting to think that the amount of damage should be a problem for my new campaign. In a 1-on-1 combat, the first doing even just a shaken condition and a single wound could have the key of victory...
Maybe it's a good idea to give the characters an "escalating" thougness linked to their rank, something like:
- Novice 0
- Seasoned +1
- Veteran +2
- Heroic +3
- Legendary +4
Or just give'em a +1 (Veteran) and a +2 (Legendary), while at Seasoned and Heroic let them choose a free "hardening" Edge between brawny, strong willed, combat reflexes, or nerves of steel?

Finally, I want to report here a question "redirected" from the Official Question Tread:
Florentine should be nice for a quick unarmed warrior, like a kung-fu one. Of course, in this campaign I don't have weapons and shields... How can I change this Edge to use with my martial arts advetures? Maybe the character can't do heavy attacks (like wild attacks or berserk attacks), and the edge works only versus enemies that don't have Two Fisted (so, the slow-type ones, as they have just "1 weapon")? I really can't think a variant use of this edge, without create a brand-new edge that every fighter would take just to powerup their fighting roll (reducing the gangup too).

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#9 Postby Tuesday » Wed Jan 28, 2009 8:25 pm

Assume combatants have Strength D10, Vigor D10, Improved Unarmed for a D6 "weapon" damage, and Fighting D10.

That person rolls D10-2 with a wild die of D6-2, looking to hit a 7 (the Parry of a guy with Fighting D10). This means he's got about a 25% chance of hitting *at all*, and, if he does, he does D10+D6+4 damage - for an average of 14 against a Toughness of 7. That's 1 Wound - the victim spends a Benny, rolls, Toughness D10 + Wild Die, and has an 80% chance of eliminating the Wound *and* the Shaken, immediately.

So no, I'm not worried about the first hit ending the fight - a *really good* combatant has a *25%* chance of making his opponent have an *80%* chance of spending a Benny.

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Re: Light manoeuvres / Heavy manoeuvres & Florentine Una

#10 Postby UmbraLux » Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:09 pm

Lord Lance wrote:I need a balanced system for those light attacks, I don't want to twist the system upside down...
You might consider adding a 'stance' mechanic. Some thing like the following:
  • 'Light' Stance: Moving quickly and striking from many angles grants the martial artist one extra attack and +1 movement at the cost of -1 damage to all attacks that round.
  • 'Medium' Stance: Default - no bonuses or negatives.
  • 'Heavy' Stance: By setting himself and throwing big haymakers, roundhouse kicks, and other strong attacks the martial artist does +1 damage with attacks but is at -1 to movement and fighting roll due to the deep stance and telegraphed strikes.
I'd probably use different stance names and, perhaps, add a couple more. Then give different martial arts access to different stances (or make the stances edges and give them prerequisites). That would put a bit more detail into the martial arts aspect of your game without too much more work. It would also let you make each martial art unique (different available stances) while keeping the core system the same for all of them.

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#11 Postby dentris » Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:26 pm

Light attack: +1 to parry but damage cannot ace
Medium attack: normal attack
Heavy attack: wild attack
But the Voice consoles me and it says: "Keep your dreams;
Wise men do not have such beautiful ones as fools!"
--Baudelaire, Les Fleurs du Mal, 1857, Translated by William Aggeler, 1954

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#12 Postby Lord Lance » Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:42 am

Tuesday wrote:Assume combatants have Strength D10, Vigor D10, Improved Unarmed for a D6 "weapon" damage, and Fighting D10.

Well, I think the fighters will be more equilibrated ('cause they have to face, tricks, test of will ...)
So my players will start with a 80 XP character, but even if they are lucky, they'll have 5 Ability upgrade, starting from the classic d6. So they could take a balanced d8 d8 d8 d8 d8 fighter, or just a couple of variations. A d10 STR, and d10 VIG, must stay at d6 for SMA and SPI, if they need some AGI (d8 ), to take that d10 in fighting without waste too much "levels"...

However there are many edges, so it's difficult to think to a "classic" situation...

If I have to give my overall point of view, without "thinking" too much, I say that I see a lot of "possibilities", maneuvres, etc. to make more damage to the enemy, but very few to "take some extra defense".
Finally, to goin' deeper with this issue, I don't want to think to those damned evil dices :mrgreen: :mrgreen: They ace damage with an alarming frequency!!! :twisted: :twisted:

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#13 Postby GreenTongue » Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:00 am

As far as extra defense, consider the setting rule of giving a bennie every scene. With bennies gained not raising the starting bennie pool.
These bennies can then be used for the great "Come Backs" that are seen in Kung Fu movies, as shakens and wounds are "overcome".
=

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#14 Postby Tuesday » Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:16 am

Lord Lance:
A d10 STR, and d10 VIG, must stay at d6 for SMA and SPI, if they need some AGI (d8 ), to take that d10 in fighting without waste too much "levels"...


Nope. You can start with *7* stat levels from your Hindrances, then take your 5 additional ones at one per rank until Legendary. Meaning, a powerful melee fighter should expect to have Strength D10, Agility D8, Vigor D10, Spirit D6, Smarts D6 *and then* two more above and beyond that, anywhere he wants them.

Tests of Will? Strong-Willed is better than *two* die types, and it affects two stats. Tricks can be nasty but don't really justify Agility beyond d8 and Smarts beyond d6 unless you're going to concentrate on using them yourself - and if you do, you're not going to have the same kind of damage output to take advantage of your targets. Recovering from Shaken? Combat Reflexes and a D6 Spirit is better than a D10 spirit in most cases, and saves you two *attribute* advancements.

PS: Buying a skill above your stat is not "wasting levels". It is saving you Attribute points, so that you can put Attributes that you need for other things higher without wasting your limited supply. You only waste points if you raise the skill above the stat, AND THEN raise the stat - and that kind of waste can make sense, sometimes, in some circumstances.

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#15 Postby AFDia » Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:40 pm

You could allow a flexible Wild Attack: You can choose a number from 1 to 3 and this is your attack&dmg bonus and your parry penalty.

Perhaps +3/+3/-3 is too strong, but even then you have 3 possible attacks:
Light: +0/+0/-0
Medium: +1/+1/-1
Hard: +2/+2/-2

+3/+3/-3 could be an edge called "Very Hard Strike" or something like that.

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#16 Postby jamused » Thu Jan 29, 2009 1:23 pm

I guess what I wonder is what is a light attack intending to accomplish outside of a match where points are being scored for a touch...Can you eventually put an opponent out with a succession of light attacks? Or are light attacks just meant to disorient and set up the opponent for a damaging attack?

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#17 Postby Lord Lance » Thu Jan 29, 2009 1:42 pm

Tuesday wrote:Nope. You can start with *7* stat levels from your Hindrances, then take your 5 additional ones at one per rank until Legendary.


Are you sure about that?? When you create a character, you are already at Novice rank, so if you "use" an Hindrance to pumpup an Attribute, you can't pumpup nomore, until you reach Seasoned at 20 XP (and you arrive at Legendary, 80 XP with 5).
(any official word about that??)

____

x AFDia:

Mmmm ... dunno, maybe i'll stack with "Light attack: +1 to parry but damage cannot ace" solution...


____

Any ideas on the "Florentine" edge ... unarmed? Please see my past posts.
Last edited by Lord Lance on Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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#18 Postby Tuesday » Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:30 pm

Yes, I'm sure, and yes, there's Official Word to support it.

Try here:
http://www.peginc.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... +hindrance

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#19 Postby longarms » Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:29 pm

There is something unartful about giving a bonus to hit to both light attacks and heavy attacks, but medium attacks get no bonus.

That said, its hard to think of another solution that doesn't give a bonus to light attacks. One possibility would be to give a penalty to hit with light atttacks (a -1 or -2 to represent that light attacks are not well considered attacks), but in exchange the PC can get riposite counterstrikes for any attacks @ him the next round (representing that the quick attacks leave him in a good position to counterstrike). Obviously the riposite edge would not be selectable if you were doing it this way.

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#20 Postby Lord Lance » Thu Jan 29, 2009 5:51 pm

x Thusday:
Hey man, you was f*****g right! :mrgreen: Now I have to re-think some PG, to evalutate if it's better to pump up the "potential", or stay with an extra edge ...
Well, this thing of "creation is not levelling up" shaked me! I need to roll my Spirit!

x Longarms:
Well, a medium attack is ... a medium attack! :-D So neither bonus nor penalties!!!

An heavy attack is a classical haymaker: you want to hit the enemy all costs, and do a lot of damage ... of course, if you miss you are hell open to a painful counterattack! (and wild attack rules are perfect for this one, I think). So you get more % to hit, and more damage, but penalty to parry.

Personally I think we miss the classical "I stay quite defensive, punchin' savvy, without unbalance myself and without opening too much, so I can react and parry/dodge better my enemy." Of course this kind of hits do less damage of a normal punch. So you get penalty to damage, and bonus to parry <<< ok, this mechanic is not definitive, I have to think about balance, negating Aces and giving +1 Parry...


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