Bull Rush / Knock Down

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Bull Rush / Knock Down

#1 Postby ron blessing » Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:13 pm

Is there anything in the rules to cover this?

I'm not talking about Setting Rules or supplements or suggestions. Is there a way within the base rules?

Thanks!

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#2 Postby Clint » Tue Dec 02, 2008 6:25 pm

Hmm, if insisting on staying in the "base rules," then maybe something like...

Move, grapple, continue movement for Bull Rush.
Description of an Agility Trick for a Knock Down.

Might be something else, but that's the first to come to mind.
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#3 Postby ron blessing » Tue Dec 02, 2008 8:47 pm

OK. I clearly have to get into intent here.

I'm looking for specific stuff that will allow any character the ability to push someone, say off a cliff or into a wall. The ability to knock someone back or down, as an intention, doesn't seem to be in the core rules.

Clearly there are things with this effect available in the form of edges, like those in Modern Martial Arts (written by some hack... can't remember who puked those out ;)). But I don't think the ability to knock someone over or into something should require an edge, at least in some settings.

I guess I'm mulling a setting rule, here. But, as always, I don't want to write a setting rule to solve an issue that doesn't exist.

The move, grapple, keep moving idea for a bull rush seems reasonable, if one wants to hold on to the person they're intending to go off a cliff, but it seems a little clunky. Maybe I should have called it a Shoulder Charge?

And I suppose knocking someone down could be done through an Agility trick, though I'd argue someone with Fighting should have the choice of using Fighting rather than Agility. But that would be a Setting or House Rule, wouldn't it?

I'm rambling. Any thoughts on the above?

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#4 Postby Clint » Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:04 pm

Ron Blessing wrote:I guess I'm mulling a setting rule, here. But, as always, I don't want to write a setting rule to solve an issue that doesn't exist.


Nah, it's been brought up before, and there's nothing "official." In fact, oddly enough, it was brought up only a couple of weeks ago, and I got to thinking about it. And then this thread just got bumped a little while ago. Check this rule for "throwing" someone, though it could be effectively "knocking them down" as well.

http://www.peginc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=175607&highlight=throw#175607

As far as the "I got to thinking about it," well, I starting working on this new maneuver...

Push/Trip

As an action, the character makes a Strength or Agility roll opposed by his target's Strength or Agility (their choice). On a success, the target is moved 1" in the direction of the attacker's choice, and on a raise, they are moved 2". Any manuever, Edge, or effect that modifies Fighting damage also modifiers the Strength roll in this case (ex. a Wild Attack adds +2 to the Strength roll), and any modifier that affects Agility Tricks also modifies the Agility roll. Targets that are moved in this manner do not count as Withdrawing from Close Combat.

Something like that what you were looking for?
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#5 Postby ron blessing » Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:11 pm

Clint wrote:Push/Trip

As an action, the character makes a Strength or Agility roll opposed by his target's Strength or Agility (their choice). On a success, the target is moved 1" in the direction of the attacker's choice, and on a raise, they are moved 2". Any manuever, Edge, or effect that modifies Fighting damage also modifiers the Strength roll in this case (ex. a Wild Attack adds +2 to the Strength roll), and any modifier that affects Agility Tricks also modifies the Agility roll. Targets that are moved in this manner do not count as Withdrawing from Close Combat.

Something like that what you were looking for?


That's what I was looking for. The only thing I'd consider changing is making it three choices: Strength, Agility, or Fighting. This would allow for folks that "paid extra" to raise their Fighting, and not their Agility or Strength, to not be hamstrung in this case, especially given that trained fighters should be better at this sort of thing.

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#6 Postby Clint » Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:38 pm

Ron Blessing wrote:That's what I was looking for. The only thing I'd consider changing is making it three choices: Strength, Agility, or Fighting. This would allow for folks that "paid extra" to raise their Fighting, and not their Agility or Strength, to not be hamstrung in this case, especially given that trained fighters should be better at this sort of thing.


Eh, I was thinking that fighters that were actually trained to do this might have an Edge... perhaps by some hack. ;)
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#7 Postby ron blessing » Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:59 pm

Clint wrote:
Ron Blessing wrote:That's what I was looking for. The only thing I'd consider changing is making it three choices: Strength, Agility, or Fighting. This would allow for folks that "paid extra" to raise their Fighting, and not their Agility or Strength, to not be hamstrung in this case, especially given that trained fighters should be better at this sort of thing.


Eh, I was thinking that fighters that were actually trained to do this might have an Edge... perhaps by some hack. ;)


Nice. But as a setting rule it would make sense to include Fighting. Fair enough?

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#8 Postby Aramus Daimorgul » Wed Dec 03, 2008 12:49 am

I might add that they add their size to the 1" or 2" back. A giant should be saying, "Batter up."
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#9 Postby ron blessing » Wed Dec 03, 2008 12:58 am

Aramus Daimorgul wrote:I might add that they add their size to the 1" or 2" back. A giant should be saying, "Batter up."


Nice. But I'd probably say half its size, rounded down, in order to avoid potential craziness.

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#10 Postby ohoh7 » Wed Dec 03, 2008 1:33 am

Ron,

There is a Bull Rush entry in the Savagepedia House Rules that you may want to check out:

http://savagepedia.wikispaces.com/Savag ... ouse+Rules

Paul

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#11 Postby Clint » Wed Dec 03, 2008 8:59 am

Ron Blessing wrote:
Aramus Daimorgul wrote:I might add that they add their size to the 1" or 2" back. A giant should be saying, "Batter up."


Nice. But I'd probably say half its size, rounded down, in order to avoid potential craziness.


Well, I think the giant already has enough of an advantage in that they don't take a penalty to the roll for their size, and they have such a high Strength that success is almost assured.

It's not intended to be "knockback," but a push, so basically, for such a large creature, it's like a fleshy wall pushed into the smaller opponent. Sure, they will most likely knock them down, but once they are down, they fall under the giant appendage and that's as far as they go.

If they want to move them farther, that's when the throwing option (link above) would be more appropriate (and the initial Fighting roll would incur the standard penalty for attacking a smaller opponent before Strength enters the equation).

My two cents anyway.
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#12 Postby ron blessing » Wed Dec 03, 2008 9:37 am

Clint wrote:
Ron Blessing wrote:
Aramus Daimorgul wrote:I might add that they add their size to the 1" or 2" back. A giant should be saying, "Batter up."


Nice. But I'd probably say half its size, rounded down, in order to avoid potential craziness.


Well, I think the giant already has enough of an advantage in that they don't take a penalty to the roll for their size, and they have such a high Strength that success is almost assured.

It's not intended to be "knockback," but a push, so basically, for such a large creature, it's like a fleshy wall pushed into the smaller opponent. Sure, they will most likely knock them down, but once they are down, they fall under the giant appendage and that's as far as they go.

If they want to move them farther, that's when the throwing option (link above) would be more appropriate (and the initial Fighting roll would incur the standard penalty for attacking a smaller opponent before Strength enters the equation).

My two cents anyway.


Makes sense.

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#13 Postby ron blessing » Wed Dec 03, 2008 10:22 am

Clint wrote:Eh, I was thinking that fighters that were actually trained to do this might have an Edge... perhaps by some hack. ;)


So an Edge that allows a Fighting roll to replace Strength/Agility would denote special training in the Push/Trip area? Does that sound right?

I guess my only pushback (pun intended) would be that a brawler not using martial arts would have knowledge of pushing or tripping people. It might look uglier, but they should still be able to do it with the knowledge they gained in learning to fight.

Thoughts?

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#14 Postby Clint » Wed Dec 03, 2008 11:05 am

Ron Blessing wrote:So an Edge that allows a Fighting roll to replace Strength/Agility would denote special training in the Push/Trip area? Does that sound right?

I guess my only pushback (pun intended) would be that a brawler not using martial arts would have knowledge of pushing or tripping people. It might look uglier, but they should still be able to do it with the knowledge they gained in learning to fight.


I don't know; would they? Or would they have the higher Strength and/or Agility from being a brawler to be more likely to succeed. This isn't really a "skill" as I see it; it's a gross application of Strength or a Trick-like application of Agility.

I wouldn't directly use Fighting for this for the same reason an Agility Trick of throwing sand in someone's face woudn't use Throwing instead.

Attacks are generally set up for two rolls; contact and then effect. Using an attack skill for a direct effect (without an Edge or special ability) just feels off to me. Especially a manuever with a particular benefit in melee to begin with (push an opponent away to leave close combat without incurring an attack in return).

If a character has actually trained in fighting to push or trip people, then I see that kind of like training to Frenzy or First Strike. It's gaining an ability that isn't covered by the basic use of Fighting. For example, the Edge doesn't just allow the use of Fighting but the ability to place the target in any space adjacent to the attacker; that's a bit more of an additional benefit.

Yeah, that's more "martial arty," but if bringing this maneuver in, a similar Edge could be introduced to fit in with it more (since the Edge predates this) and fit a more "generic" fighting style.

Call it, "Momentum Mastery," and...

Whether through martial arts mastery or backroon brawl experience, this character knows how to throw opponents off-balance and leave them on the floor while maintaining his own balance. When using or resisting a Push/Trip manuever, they may use their Fighting instead of Strength or Agility, and if performing the manuever, they may choose to move the target +1" (2" on success and 3" on a raise) or have them end up Prone where they land.

I don't know. Personally, I think I'd have a Fighting requirement to get the Edge, but instead of offering the option of using Fighting, I'd give a +2 bonus to use or resist the maneuever. That's more beneficial, but it represents that the ability comes from the training in requiring it to get the Edge.

I don't know; the whole thing has to be tested anyway; it might be a bit too close to parse without that at this point.
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#15 Postby ron blessing » Wed Dec 03, 2008 2:30 pm

OK. Your point is well taken. I will test Push/Trip and Momentum Mastery as written. More to come on this.

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#16 Postby ron blessing » Wed Jan 28, 2009 6:38 pm

Clint,

Do you think that the Push/Trip maneuver and the Momentum Mastery edge can live in the same world as Hi-Ya!?

I'm assuming I'd want to take your advice regarding the +2 instead of the Fighting option should I go with it.

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What?!

#17 Postby manifold » Thu Jan 29, 2009 1:06 am

in order to avoid potential craziness.


Good Lord, man! Do you know nothing of role playing games?!

Potential craziness is the air we breathe! ;p

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#18 Postby Clint » Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:16 am

Ron Blessing wrote:Do you think that the Push/Trip maneuver and the Momentum Mastery edge can live in the same world as Hi-Ya!?

I'm assuming I'd want to take your advice regarding the +2 instead of the Fighting option should I go with it.


In that case, yeah, I think so. Momentum Mastery can make someone Prone or increase distance. Hi-YA! can make them Prone and cause a Shaken which can also cause a wound. But...

Mainly I think so specifically because Hi-YA! uses Fighting versus Fighting. That Edge would allow a character to trip an ogre by rolling against a d8 (its Fighting) instead of a d12+3 (its Strength). Size and Strength would be irrelevant to such a character.

You could in fact intertwine the two Edges and let Momentum Mastery modify Hi-YA! as well; not changing the effect of Hi-YA! but providing a +2 bonus to the opposed roll.
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A Trick?

#19 Postby Ornimancer » Thu Jun 17, 2010 3:14 pm

I'm new to SW, but it seems to me that an opposed Agility (or STR) roll as a Trick is already in place as the game mechanic of choice. An example would be in a swashbuckling game where someone wants to try to push someone over or onto a table, etc.

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#20 Postby jpk » Thu Jun 17, 2010 3:30 pm

Ron Blessing wrote:
Clint wrote:Eh, I was thinking that fighters that were actually trained to do this might have an Edge... perhaps by some hack. ;)


So an Edge that allows a Fighting roll to replace Strength/Agility would denote special training in the Push/Trip area? Does that sound right?

I guess my only pushback (pun intended) would be that a brawler not using martial arts would have knowledge of pushing or tripping people. It might look uglier, but they should still be able to do it with the knowledge they gained in learning to fight.

Thoughts?

Well, since this has been bumped back into my attention, I'd pushback on your pushback, Ron.

I would think a good brawler would already be using martial arts, just with rougher trappings.


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