Victorian Era Firearms

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Sunwolf
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Victorian Era Firearms

#1 Postby Sunwolf » Fri Oct 31, 2008 9:16 am

I’m looking for stats for mid to late 1800’s era rifles. Both muzzle-loading and breach loading.

Early Enfield (Pattern 1851-1861), Snider-Enfield and/or Martini-Henry Rifles and German or other nation equivalents.

Basically I’m wondering about rate of fire for breech vs. muzzle-loaders and relative damage/range for different calibers. Range and damage can be worked out from SWEX, RoF I'd like some thoughts.

(Please don't tell me this stuff can be found in another SW book. With Xmas on the way, my wife will kill me if I buy anything before :cry: )

Thanks,
Rick
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#2 Postby Tuesday » Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:21 am

I was about to suggest the Deadlands Player's Guide.

Without that book, then.

For ROF: Black powder guns take two actions to reload. Nothing wrong with that, use that for muzzle-loaders.
For breach-loaders: Not as fast as cartridges, faster than black powder, therefore have them take one action to reload.

If you think that's too fast, add one action to each, or add a rule that you can't reload *and* fire in the same turn by taking a MAP.

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#3 Postby JackAce » Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:46 am

The "bad" news: Most of what you're looking for can be found in either Deadlands: Reloaded, or Rippers (that's the answer you did not want to get).


As to reloading times ('cause that's what really determined "rate of fire" on single shot weapons) you can basically go with the info from SWEX as well:

Muzzle Loaders always have a Reload time of 2.

Any weapon with an Ammo rating of 1 and no listed Reload time is a Breach Loader (OK, there's only one of these in SWEX, but it's there). Even though there's no listed Reload for these weapons, the still need to be reloaded after each shot. This takes one action, so these weapones are practically "Reload 1".

Revolvers and weapons with internal magazines should realistically have a Reload of 2 or 3 (for a full load of cartridges), but DL:C has shortened this to one action for dramatic reasons (except for Cap & Ball revolvers, which take loooong to reload).

Any weapon with a clip magazine can be fully reloaded in one action.


As to Damage in relation to caliber, don't go overboard with this!
If you look at the Damage ratings given in SWEX, you'll find that the majority of Rifles (including modern Assault Rifles) do 2d8 damage. A +1 bonus can be given to a weapon to indicate that it's "slightly more powerful" than most others (like the AK-47 got in SWEX).

For a mid-to-late Victorian setting, the biggest leap in damage potential was the switch from Black Power to Smokeless Power in the mid-1880s. If you plan to play around that time, I suggest giving 2d10 Damage to any rifle using smokeless powder and keep the old black powder weapons at 2d8.
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#4 Postby Tuesday » Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:01 am

Actually, in SWEX reloading a weapon without a listed reload time *is a free action*.

I went through this a month or so ago, because I couldn't believe that that was
A) the rule
and
B) intentional,
but it's both.

In Deadlands, reloading takes an action because of a setting rule. In the core system, cracking your gun, ejecting the empty, pulling out a replacement, putting it in, closing the gun, and readying it is free.

(For contrast, since this is something that really annoys me, drawing a knife takes an action.)

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#5 Postby Skipper » Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:56 am

Easily remedied.....

"Guys, it'll take a round to reload that there brecch loader. You can try and rush it if you want, but the penalty to all actions will be at -6 due to the concentration and time required."

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#6 Postby Tuesday » Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:05 pm

-6 is a little excessive. -2, the standard multi-action penalty, is much more reasonable.

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#7 Postby Sunwolf » Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:32 pm

Tuesday wrote:I was about to suggest the Deadlands Player's Guide.


JackAce wrote:The "bad" news: Most of what you're looking for can be found in either Deadlands: Reloaded, or Rippers (that's the answer you did not want to get).


As luck would have it, I have the Deadlands Reloaded PDF. I forget it's sitting on my harddrive. :oops:

Thanks that gives me so stuff to work with.

Rick
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#8 Postby JackAce » Sat Nov 01, 2008 9:09 pm

Tuesday wrote:Actually, in SWEX reloading a weapon without a listed reload time *is a free action*.

I went through this a month or so ago, because I couldn't believe that that was
A) the rule
and
B) intentional,
but it's both.

When you say you have "been through this", do you mean you asked this in the Rules Questions forum?
'Cause I was unable to find any such post...


However, in retrospect I need to revise my previous suggestions about loading times:

The exact time it takes to reload a weapon depends on the setting!

In a renaissance/early modern setting - say during the 30 Years War - where muskets are still competing with crossbows and bows on the same battlefields it makes sense that a bow can shoot every round, a crossbow takes one round to reload and a musket takes two.

In an 18th century setting (American Revolution) a musket should take one round to reload and a rifle two. The shorter reload time makes ranged combat run faster and keeps the action moving.

In the mid 19th century (Crimean War, American Civil War) muzzle loading rifles load in one round while breech loaders (once they become available) fire every round. The greater speed of muzzle loading rifles is historically accurate due to technical advancements. And the the even greater speed of breech loader should be obvious.

In a late 19th/early 20th century setting (Zulu War, Boer War, WWI) the trend is reversed. Now breech loaders should take a round to reload after each shot, while magazine-fed repeating rifles fire every round (and take one action to reload when empty). Towards the end of this period, semi-automatic become available, which fire like repeaters, but are also capable of double-taps.
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#9 Postby Tuesday » Sat Nov 01, 2008 9:27 pm

Looks like it might have been eaten by the post purger. It may have been longer than a month.

But yeah - I saw a reference to reloading guns being a free action, said "Uh, what?" and pursued it with Clint. The short version is that reloading a firearm is a free action in Savage Worlds unless the rules explicitly say otherwise. Deadlands has a Setting Rule that says reloading a gun takes an action. Savage Worlds itself does not.

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#10 Postby JackAce » Sun Nov 02, 2008 7:13 am

Tuesday wrote:The short version is that reloading a firearm is a free action in Savage Worlds unless the rules explicitly say otherwise.

Hmm...

That would leave the Ammo rating for weapons with RoF 1 completely meaningless, since it makes no difference weather you shoot the gun with a (partially) filled magazine or start out with an empty magazine, reload, and then fire...

And for Automatic and Semi-Auto weapons, the Ammo count only becomes important if the amount of ammo remaining in the gun is less than a full Auto Burst, 3RB or DT.


Overall, I stand by my assessment that reload times for most weapons have deliberately been left unspecified so that different specifications can be applied for different settings. However, in this case, the specified reload times for crossbows and early gunpowder weapons do contradict the principle a bit. (Although they do serve to demonstrate the concept of differring Reload times, which would otherwise be completely absent from the SW:EX book.)
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#11 Postby Sunwolf » Sun Nov 02, 2008 9:29 am

I like the idea that rate of fire is dependent on the setting.

Keeping that in mind I've decided to use these,

Muzzle loading rifle: 2 actions to reload, RoF=1/3
Breech loading Rifle: 1 action to reload, RoF=1/2
Repeaters: Reload time depends on the weapon, RoF=1+

I've decided to keep the weapons list fairly generic, a rifle is a rifle, ect. Still haven't decided if it'll be semi-historical or made up whole cloth. That will depend on larger setting decisions.

Thanks guys,
Rick
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#12 Postby JackAce » Sun Nov 02, 2008 10:03 am

Sunwolf wrote:Repeaters: Reload time depends on the weapon, RoF=1+

What exactly is RoF 1+ supposed to mean?
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#13 Postby Sunwolf » Sun Nov 02, 2008 3:24 pm

JackAce wrote:What exactly is RoF 1+ supposed to mean?


The setting these are for is Steampunk/Anachronistic Fantasy.

There will be several weapons which will have RoF of more than 1. It was just my way of placing repeaters into a category which allows for higher rates of fire without listing all the different options.
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#14 Postby Tuesday » Sun Nov 02, 2008 9:46 pm

What exactly is RoF 1+ supposed to mean?


"Rate of fire 1 or more".

To compare with the weapons that take 2 actions to reload (and hence fire one in every two rounds) and the ones that take 3 actions (and hence fire once every three rounds)

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#15 Postby JackAce » Mon Nov 03, 2008 8:02 am

Tuesday wrote:
What exactly is RoF 1+ supposed to mean?


"Rate of fire 1 or more".


I was just wondering why a repeating weapon would have an RoF larger than 1.

But it seems like sunwolf is planning to add some sort of automatic weapons to his setting as well, so that explains it.
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#16 Postby Sunwolf » Mon Nov 03, 2008 4:13 pm

JackAce wrote:But it seems like sunwolf is planning to add some sort of automatic weapons to his setting as well, so that explains it.


This.
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